Trading Psychology

[nunthewiser]

I think he just "psyched" you out bro

 

[nunthewiser]

oh yeah FWIW i also believe one needs the correct mental balance and varying skills that comes with studying varying psycology traits in a trading enviroment.
have spotted many a bargain or sale indication from reading and hearing various ppls reactions, thoughts and opinions, can be converted to volume analysis and reading the "herds".

anyways just rambling now so back to the meds.

I believe being the iceman is a load of bollocks tho

 

[nulla nulla]

Trading is "warfare". Until you understand and accept that, you will fail. You want the best approach to "psychology" for trading, read "The Art of War by Sung Tzu".

 

[tech/a]

What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?

My own experience.

I have judged myself, I know my flaws and my strengths and do pretend otherwise.

Nor I --I am rude and arrogant to those who perceive me as rude and arrogant.
To others I am direct and cut through the Crap.

Tell me tech/a, you have posted 9,000 posts over many years on this forum, what have you learnt about trading and about yourself as a result?

Trading like any business practice is very simple to master.
its only the participants who continue to complicate trading and most other business practices.
Trading has sharpened my risk management skills above all else on a personal level.
It is a tremendous study in the stupidity---yet brilliance of herd mentality.
one i will continue to be involved with till the day I take my last breath.

 

[Trembling Hand]

So there you have it people, or at least a small description of why I believe that psychology is ultimately to key to success, not the system. What good is a system or money management, if you cannot control you responses to positive effect?

With all the due respect little i can muster. You have to be kidding???

A **** system or **** MM creates ill effects in your Psychology - in your Mind & Body. You end up throwing your plan out the window on what punters often call 'undisciplined' trades. What is really happening is the start of the delusion that you're doing the right thing, that you are a trader, is being stripped away. Denial is giving way to reality. You stray from the ill fated plan you have set for yourself because you don't know that that plan is one that will ultimate be profitable. Every bad day chips away at your ego until you blow up in 1 of the 1000s of ways to blow up in this gig.

Those that are weak, silly, lazy or unable to get off their ar$e to actually do some real work on a real system fall on the psychology band wagon. Others set about doing some work, testing, practicing, simming, reviewing, developing etc.

Why is trading different to any other business, sport, career or life goal? People who spend the time correctly practicing the activity achive gains. Those that talk about the mystical talents of the elite defeating the odds end up making excuses about their own failures till the day they die.

 

[professor_frink]

I spent 12 years self sabotaging for the thrill of winning and to avoid the pain of losing.

On your website, and on your public profile on the forum here, you state that you've been trading for 15 years, you are also now saying that you spent 12 of those years "self sabotaging".

So you have a maximum of 3 years of good trading under your belt , and you are marketing yourself as a trading coach, charging people 6K a year for your wisdom, which so far sounds like it has been regurgitated from a $30 book on trading.

Think I'll step aside and leave you to it

 

[sails]

What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?

I have judged myself, I know my flaws and my strengths and do pretend otherwise.

Tell me tech/a, you have posted 9,000 posts over many years on this forum, what have you learnt about trading and about yourself as a result?

Hmmm, I think you will find the answer in those 9,000 posts...

Tech and many other respected posters have shared their wisdom in their posts and haven't charged a cent for it.

I am immediately skeptical with high priced courses on something as slippery as trading. I have been caught into such courses in my beginning years of trading only to find it was very expensive pollywaffle. In my experience, the real gems are found with patience and generally have no price tag.

 

[$20shoes]

"Trading psychology" is a broad brush.

What you often end up with is people clinging to aphorisms that are difficult to distill into practical trading rules. If you have a feeling that in the long term you can still lose in this game, then there is an increased likelihood that you are masking your lack of trading and system preparation with an exaggerated leaning on mental thoroughness, or a lack thereof.

Learning from your trading journey is important; trading discipline is important - but at its core your goal is to understand how your system works within a market and how and where it seems to actually gives you pretty crappy results; this knowledge is what gives you the preparation to brace for the next losing streak and the understanding of why you make profits when you do.

I think this whole umbrella called trading psychology often echoes just another variation on the same theme. You can espouse an important point and I can know it for its truth but I can acknowledge its truth all the way to bankruptcy. What has been one trader's experience has not helped me make money at all.
Like "did you know it hurts when you lose someone close to you"?
"Yes, it does" - we can say yes even if we have never lost someone close to us. I can continue saying yes everyday and be no closer to understanding sorrow.

It's important to grow as a trader as it is important to grow as a person. A general self-help book gives me concepts but it doesn't do jack when it comes to changing who i am or who I want to become.

(Holy cow - i think the above is psychobabble - how ironic).

by the way, i'm starting a little trading business soon. Landing page -

"Im going to take 5 grand of your money just for the hell of it. You wont get rich very quickly at all actually because we have to watch our bet size, and its not really up to me; the market kinda dictates how well we'll go from day to day. You're gonna lose a hell of a lot more times than you win. Somedays it's going to feel like you're just pi$$ing your money away. But if you can stand it, all in all we'll come out on top...eventually..."
Please sign up here for your punch in the face -

 

[Gringotts Bank]

If someone was to watch me trade, they would say I use TA.
After all, I draw trend lines, run scans and inspect the market depth and watch as much of the recent action I can without missing the trade at the price I want.

But I understand without a shadow of a doubt that whether the trade makes money or not has everything (100%) to do with my psychology. It's almost as if the "method", if you could call it that, is just me going through the motions, and is not at all necessary.

My trading has gone through various phases, starting with basic FA, then basic TA, then advanced TA, then psychological methods, then back to simple TA (since advanced TA usually resulted in poorer returns), neural networks and back to simple TA. Once you've tried enough "methods", you realise there are no methods, it's all about how you feel, your attitudes and beliefs. Each "method" can be successful or useless, depending on you, the operator.

If trading had anything at all to do with method, then don't you think the big funds could afford to buy one and implement it? Think about that.

 

[Steve Arthur]

Hmmm, I think you will find the answer in those 9,000 posts...

Tech and many other respected posters have shared their wisdom in their posts and haven't charged a cent for it.

I am immediately skeptical with high priced courses on something as slippery as trading. I have been caught into such courses in my beginning years of trading only to find it was very expensive pollywaffle. In my experience, the real gems are found with patience and generally have no price tag.

I agree, that's why I do not charge for or sell any courses, books, newsletters, dvd's,software, black box trading systems or give out buy or sell tips. I merely charge for my time. And anyone who had spent 15 years learning something in any profession would expect $100 a hour. That is all I charge, as the coaching always works out at about 5 hrs per month.

The reason I wanted to do the coaching in the first place was because of all the crap that is out there, anybody who reads my website can see that.

Thank you $20 shoes for talking about the subject, I hope it continues.

 

[tech/a]

The reason I wanted to do the coaching in the first place was because of all the crap that is out there, anybody who reads my website can see that.

Marketing 101 read copy before publishing!

OOps!!

 

[Steve Arthur]

Sorry about that, I tried not to, but hard not to in this instance.

Please delete that bit.

 

[tech/a]

My trading has gone through various phases, starting with basic FA, then basic TA, then advanced TA, then psychological methods, then back to simple TA (since advanced TA usually resulted in poorer returns), neural networks and back to simple TA. Once you've tried enough "methods", you realise there are no methods, it's all about how you feel, your attitudes and beliefs. Each "method" can be successful or useless, depending on you, the operator.

GG
Don't agree with you on all aspects.
What I would say I see in this passage is that you've never progressed from a method hypothesis to proof of a positive expectancy method which has with stood rigorous scrutiny.There are PROVEN methods many many of them.Some are even available to the general public---free and some are available from licensed sources for a fee.

If trading had anything at all to do with method, then don't you think the big funds could afford to buy one and implement it? Think about that.

Naive statement.
Funds have whole floors of actuaries working on volumes of data.
Everything funds do they do WITH methods.
Funds are like elephants and due to volumes have a great deal of trouble achieving what we the general public can without volume restraints.
Once trading $250-500K + portfolios volumes and liquidity do become a governing factor.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Steve, that reminds of a line from Get Smart: "Well gentlemen, I've watched you all make fools of yourselves... and now it's my turn!"

tech/a yes, I concede the elephant factor is a huge limit, but even so, they only make 8%pa.

 

[Julia]

, then psychological methods,

Can you explain what 'psychological methods' as a system of trading consist of?

Steve, still hoping for an explanation from you, as earlier requested, of what actually you mean by the term "trading psychology"?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method. A lot harder than it sounds!

 

[tech/a]

Sorry about that, I tried not to, but hard not to in this instance.

Please delete that bit.

So other than 15 yrs (12 in a tizz) of trading why would I or anyone else go to to you for coaching?

(1) Are you licensed? (ASIC)
(2) Do you have a proven track record that I can verify?.
(3) Do you have a portfolio or portfolios currently trading that can be viewed to verify that your coaching methods are actually employed to trade?---Profitably.
(4) Do you show how to handle and reduce draw downs?
(5) Are you insured---what if I do your course follow it then lose a heap---I may sue you!
(6) Do you have any guarantee that your coaching methods will improve my or anyone else's trading?

These are all questions I would ask and expect from an educator and those here know I use one mentor who ticks all the boxes.(been trading 17 yrs) 5 of them in a tizz)

 

[Julia]

Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method. A lot harder than it sounds!

I imagine it would indeed be hard to have a positive expectation if it's not based on any sort of proven method!
Could you give some examples? It sounds a bit as though you just throw a dart at any stock, buy it, and 'positively expect' it will do well!

I doubt you'd actually be doing that, so if you could explain a little, that would be really helpful.

 

[tech/a]

Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method. A lot harder than it sounds!

Julia

Discretionary trading that is profitable.
Setting a sequence of trades up which
you set out to trade profitably by winning
more than you lose on a consistent basis
is very difficult.
I do that with Discretionary Index Trading (futures).
To be honest my systems trading is far more long
term profitable than my discretionary.

Expectation is a far cry from setting up a trade
sequence to have positive expectancy.

 

[Trembling Hand]

It sounds a bit as though you just throw a dart at any stock, buy it, and 'positively expect' it will do well!

He wouldn't be the first to do so. Thats why Psycho books for retail traders sell so well.