Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis + FX

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

wayneL,

See the attachment. It is a snapshot of the performance of my live account from ninja trader from the 29/02/08 (my first live date) till today. At this stage I only trade 1 contract and have a total profit of $587.50 before brokerage. I would be interested to see who else is willing to prove their system works as I just have.

Either put up or shut up.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

wayneL,

See the attachment. It is a snapshot of the performance of my live account from ninja trader from the 29/02/08 (my first live date) till today. At this stage I only trade 1 contract and have a total profit of $587.50 before brokerage. I would be interested to see who else is willing to prove their system works as I just have.

Either put up or shut up.

Cheers,

Be sure to keep us updated... say after 50, 100, 1000 trades.

FWIW I keep a running expectancy of my most recent trades. It is amazing how it ebbs and flows.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?

 

[Timmy]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

See the attachment.

I don't see any attachment TI?

An obvious criticism is that your real trading has been going only for 2 weeks, so it will be interesting to see how its going, like Wayne said, after a longer period. Good on you for putting your trades up, it is a very rare thing for people promoting these type of systems and goes a good deal of the way to answering the skeptics (like me).

 

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?

Wayne,

On the 1 contract I trade ($1000.00) I have made $550 profit. Hence 55% return in 7 trading days.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

How do you figure out 55% profit. 55% on what?

Some quick back of envelope calcs:

Cost to join TI $7,000

Generally accepted cash reserve needed to trade 1 contract ~$15,000

Hardware, software, office costs etc. minimum $3,000

Total setup costs ~$25,000

550/25000 = 2.2%

 

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

I don't see any attachment TI?

An obvious criticism is that your real trading has been going only for 2 weeks, so it will be interesting to see how its going, like Wayne said, after a longer period. Good on you for putting your trades up, it is a very rare thing for people promoting these type of systems and goes a good deal of the way to answering the skeptics (like me).

Timmy,

I had it on a previous post but then realised I had my account details so took it off and blanked them out.

I know it is early days but so far so good. Better than what I was expecting.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Wayne,

On the 1 contract I trade ($1000.00) I have made $550 profit. Hence 55% return in 7 trading days.

OK don't take this the wrong way, but there is a saying amongst older hands that goes: Minimum margin = minimum intelligence.

i.e. The margin you're using is irrelevant to your % return. On that basis most winning futures trader could post truly startling percentages. The reality is, as my previous post, the actual capital employed in setup costs, margin and cash reserves is much higher and is the figure that should be taken into account when calculating profit.

To calculate profit on margin employed is BS.

Not wishing to be harsh, but that's just the truth.

 

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Some quick back of envelope calcs:

Cost to join TI $7,000

Generally accepted cash reserve needed to trade 1 contract ~$15,000

Hardware, software, office costs etc. minimum $3,000

Total setup costs ~$25,000

550/25000 = 2.2%

wayneL,

Why are you so negative? Even given your calculations (which I might add are incorrect because you can trade an emini contract with as little as $1000. Hardware, software, office costs are nill as I already had them in place prior to even considering trading. So at my calculations total setup costs are $8,000) a 2.2% return on TOTAL investment in 7 trdaing days is still great in my opinion.

By the way just picked up another trade on S&P at 8.40.20am and got 2 points (10%) entry was at 1320.50.

That now takes my return on total investment to 2.6%

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

wayneL,

Why are you so negative? Even given your calculations (which I might add are incorrect because you can trade an emini contract with as little as $1000. Hardware, software, office costs are nill as I already had them in place prior to even considering trading. So at my calculations total setup costs are $8,000) a 2.2% return on TOTAL investment in 7 trdaing days is still great in my opinion.

By the way just picked up another trade on S&P at 8.40.20am and got 2 points (10%) entry was at 1320.50.

That now takes my return on total investment to 2.6%

Not negative mate, just interested in fair reportage of the facts.

PS Read my post again re margin.

Keep us updated.

 

[peter2]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Many thanks, TI member. I was trying to highlight that it does take some time and effort to learn and practice before trading this method live. Many people expect to start making profits quite quickly after their purchase.

Like WayneL I don't like the way TI state their results (% of margin used) especially when the broker is being very flexible with their margin requirements. The TI marketing takes advantage of this flexibility. ROI is return on the total investment capital that you have available for trading. As this is a business there are start up and ongoing costs that must be offset before a profit is realised.

Enjoy the journey that you have started. I would be interested to know how you are progressing in a few months time.

 

[julius]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Well, I watched someone who live trades the TI trading setups last night and all I can say is that it is legit.

Pretty basic signals, MACD & a moving average oscillator, bullish/bearish divergence type trades...from what I saw last night the rules are very strictly adhered to.

They have a number of commentators who call out the set ups live and talk them through, manage your exits, etc

All of the previous trading calls are available in recap videos, nothing dodgy there.

My only criticism was the way profits were refered to in % terms, but that's just a semantic thing really.

The 7k is steep to be sure, but it does seem like it buys you a profitable system, which you could argue is worth alot more than that...

 

[conpute]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Hi I have been with Traders International for about a year. Just wanted to put a note in regarding cost.
The initial 7k buys you the education course ongoing support and 5 weeks in the live room.
In 5 weeks you will need to continue to attend the live room as it is not sufficient time to learn the methods and be competent to go it alone. The ongoing expense is the about $295 US per month.
You will also need your own charts if your serious (live room can be used but often there can be lag etc or room has problems so is not a good ongoing choice for serious traders) this will cost $145 to $180 US per month.
If you set up your live account as per instructions you will also have a $50 fee per month for your trading dome and a $30 fee every three months, for your account.
So if you want to do the course, then attend the room for a year, have a live account you will need for the first year about $7 K AU then about $4500 US to get through the first year.
You can carry on without the room, after a period of time, that is what I and many others I have met from my membership do, but you do miss out on a lot by doing this, I feel like I am out in the dark a lot now....but the ongoing expense is to steep for a lot of members to accommodate so we have little choice. It can be difficult to when new things are introduced as you do not find out to after room subscribers and unless you subscribe you do not get to see anything in action.
The results shown at the site are correct and the methodology is fantastic, but the results do not show the fact that you do not get on to all the profitable trades (they take off to fast or you are not bought in to the trade) but you do get into all the stopped out trades (they always come back and get you).
I have been at this for almost a year, and I am now making a small profit most weeks, but I am only using 1 contract. (it would be a great profit if I used 10) but it takes some time to build up your account to increase contracts and it takes quite some time to work out a trading plan that suits you and work on your mindset.
I will be continuing on I hope for many years to come, and hope that some time soon I will see some return for my hard effort and for the money I have spent so far.
My only disappointment is that I really feel that the 7 k should give you more room time, the methodology can be learnt in a day but it take practise to get yourself organised, and 5 weeks just is not enough practise. You will then need to be continually paying a further $500 us every month to carry on your live room and chart access.
Most of the traders that I know (and I certainly don't know that many) are at about the same stage as me...We all say that learning to trade is one of the hardest things we have ever done and that we wish we could afford the room.

 

[Timmy]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Thanks for the comments Julius and conpute. Conpute - those ongoing fees are very steep, especially after a $7,000 entry fee ... are the indicator parameters disclosed to you so you could set up the charts on some alternative charting package (like Amibroker or Metastock), this could be a cheaper option if the parameters are disclosed to you?

Also Conpute, re the execution problems such as not getting on to all the trades (and yes, the losing trades always get filled, and that's not just a market cliche it is a logical outcome of any sytematic approach), what sort of broker are you using, are you able to input bracket orders, stop-in orders etc. ? These should enable a fill under pretty much most circumstances. What contract are you trading, while the US index contracts all appear very liquid, some are more liquid than others? Does the 'system' work on only certain contracts?

Now, whats the story with the $50 trading dome fee/month and the $30 fee every three months? Those sound like fees from a broker? Are TI getting commissions from the broker for introducing clients? There are plenty of other futures brokers in the US. Some charge higher fees, but some charge no fees at all (beyond per-trade commissions). Have you investigated other brokers? By the way, can I clarify, trading dome, does that refer to the depth of market ... I imagine it does but want to check. Just back to brokers, I know one broker in the US that charges no fees beyond commish, free charting (very good charting too - if you have your parameteres I see no reason why you couldn't set up charts on this broker's platform - at no further cost to you ...... now having said that you will want to compare their commission charges, I know they are not the cheapest around).

As to working out a trading plan that suits you ... isn't that what TI is supposed to provide?

Trading room - and calling out trades. This might be just me but in the US index futures market trying to get onto a trade that is being 'called out' is an almost certainty of missing the entry, or at least getting set at sub-optimal price, if the 'system' is profitable there should be no need for following someone calling out trades ... maybe this is just an experience/confidence thing ... and that is fair enough if you are inexperienced ... Potential entries can be pre-loaded into the broker software prior to the triger ... if the trigger is hit then you are in, if no trigger then the orders are cancelled with one click on the mouse or one button.

Sorry for all the questions and comments Conpute, but it seems to me you have spent a lot of money, and are expected by TI to spend even more (don't do that), but I think a few of the members on this board could help you out with suggestions in improving your execution, setting the system up in a lower-cost charting package, and so on. You have spent a lot, but if you are happy with the basic system then you can move forward from here.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

This can all be done for free at www.woodiescciclub.com

You get the setups, trading room, trades called etc., all for nix.

***For information only - not an endorsement.

 

[julius]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

wayne, from people who know the room well :

you also get a BS strategy

you also get people who lie about charity donations

you also get people who can't trade giving trading calls

 

[peter2]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Thanks conpute, a really good post.
How about skyping with a few of the members so that you can help each other to spot the setups?
Or, one person can join the room and then skype to his mates.

Good luck with your trading.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

wayne, from people who know the room well :

you also get a BS strategy

you also get people who lie about charity donations

you also get people who can't trade giving trading calls

LOL

All true. But it struck me that the indicators/method that TI use (going by what's said here) is conceptually very similar to Woodie's system. And you don't have to pay $$$$$ to find that out.

There was a very good trader a few years ago, a lady called "geo". No nonsense, no BS. Went for the larger swings on a 13 minute chart using woodies signals. As good a day trader as I've ever seen.

Being a no-nonsense sort of gal, she got sick of the BS and left... which was a shame.... The point is that there is nothing wrong with the signals. The problem is trying to turn it into a mechanical system.

The success is in the discretion of which signals to take, and which to not take.

There are so many systems (well not systems, but methods) that work using the same philosophical basis. For example, many use a MACD 3,10,16 method. It is conceptually identical to the cci. (and really interprets none other than straight price action using moving averages, CCI does this as well)

There are just so many freely available methods that work, providing the R/R parameters and position sizing are right, that to pay 7k +++++ seems crazy.

At 7k a pop, do you think the TI mob even need to trade? Nope. The money is in selling the system.

 

[szandor]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

The costs associated with TI are expensive,but so are the costs of being inolved in any business thats your own.Having been in business for the last 7 years,i can tell you that the costs of being with TI arent that much,if what they claim to offer is legit.For example if you wanted to buy an existing business,for every $1000 profit per week you need to spend approx $100,000 on goodwill.Now if the claims by TI are legit you should be able to make $1000 a week with an investemt of about $20,000,and the attraction is that it is possible to make much more than that with little additional investment

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

FWIW Check this video out:

http://madscalper.com/videos/riskVreward/riskVreward.html?aid=8160

It's an ex woodie dude showing one of the strategies potential R/R.

In the world of day trading, nothing works, unless it does. It's up to the individual.

Edit to add: ***again, for information only - not an endorsment.