Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

TraderFeed - Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D.

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People who take delight in attempting to
Cut down others with contempt while also
attempting to make it clear that they are
so far above the topic and those taking part
in it are so far up their own rectum it’s so
Dark they can’t see anything but their own
Ego.

Can’t be bothered who ever the guy with Big nuts is
But carry on I’ve cut out the noise —- much quieter.
 
Well

barney said:
I am more than slightly interested in your opinions … I know you and @tech/a had some 'confusion' earlier in the thread ….

Could I suggest that you both revisit that 'confusion' as I think there might be some valuable interaction to come out of it:) …
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I think, we agree not to agree on anything, so that's fine and normal.
HE and I do use tech stuff, but not solely and he is a devoted sole tech guy, which i can accept and do understand. As I said a fan club or a religious cult at times.

Book sellers and course sellers and experts, well, again, we differ as do many on this thread. I feel nothing to be gained by going over ground covered.

So many ways to profit in the market, however,, trying to say point out risk management of buying something that you have NO real idea of its value is taking on an exponential risk for what are minimal returns over and above the market.

That, alone, would inflame and enrage. But buying say LUM or PDN or even an oil stock when it hit $150 briefly as the USD crashed in 2008, was asking for pain. Not looking outside, as to what drives things, is only logical and safe.

We agree, as I suspect most on their way is the best. It may very well be for them. I do know, over time, the more you get involved, the potential for something to explode and take 100% of an investment becomes exponential.

Shorting shares, one person asked me ... you are often shorting unlimited insanity. Doing so with leverage is even worse. Sell say a share drilling but looking awful on a chart and it intersects 600 metres of oil or high grade minerals and the short at 50 cents is next price $5- .

Similar to shorting options. Most retire worthless, and someone who has granted options and got the premium for a few years, one day, it occurs. All of them get exercised and you loose, every cent you made in 3 years but multiplied by 10.

Not that I have done that, but, at times say 9/11 when a market closes, opens 5 days latter, it stings. Or a company lies and the announcement comes out and its 20% lower or god forbid, receivers ... but that too will occur if your around long enough. Brains DON'T matter nor does research or charts. It happens !!

I think leaving sleeping dogs lie, is the best option and I do take note of you kind comments.

Nothing to be gained kissing and making up. We are different and vastly different which is all good.

Humans are different and that is what makes the world tick.

Take care.

Whoops just saw his post above ... even funnier than the others :):p
 
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tech/a said:
But carry on I’ve cut out the noise —- much quieter.
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kahuna1 said:
Well I think, we agree not to agree on anything, so that's fine and normal.
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OK …. I'll stand aside then ……

You are obviously both strong characters which I respect ….

I do believe that in cyber-space and on Forums, it is easy to take umbrage with someone, who in real life (at the local bowling club after a particularly tough game on the green for example:D) … we might actually strike up an interesting conversation with …. dare I say, may even become friends:eek::eek: …. Sorry if that offends any or all:p:D

You guys get the point … you are both smart people …. my suggestion …. PM each other and have a fair dinkum 'ok-corral' shoot out to see if there might be some common ground worth discussing without any forum 'interference' …… too much knowledge between the both of you to not try;)
 
barney said:
Appreciate your points Duc.

Without wanting to go round in circles; just an observation ….

1. Is it possible that if BS. was just an average/ordinary/ok/ trader, perhaps his psych background in recognising and dealing with human traits/failings etc. may have been enhanced by his own "failings", which in turn could actually improve his ability to train??

2. I agree that if he were a mediocre or poor trader however, his value as a Coach would be limited. It seems unlikely that large hedge funds would pay him big bucks under those circumstances though?
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1. Is it possible? Yes, almost anything is possible.

However this is the issue:

The aim of trading is to become profitable. To do so you need: (i) a methodology that has a positive expectancy and (ii) the ability to execute that methodology.

As regards (i): since there are no 100% win methodologies out there [not that I know anyway] then it by definition can be stated that at some point the methodology will incur a loss. Some, based on their style/design are far more aggressive, requiring greater execution, than others.

Re. (ii): the more aggressive the methodology, say day-trading futures, the greater the requirement for execution. Day-trading futures could be as simple as a coin toss to go long/short and then ruthlessly manage the trade. All the emphasis is on execution, the methodology I can teach you in about 30 seconds.

If however the methodology is more complex, a mechanical system such as Skate has provided on this forum. Then the situation is different. The donee of the system needs to really understand the system and have confidence in the system, otherwise, execution will be poor and will likely deteriorate in any period of drawdown.

I have already highlighted the issue re. the turtle experiment.

So Steenbarger is operating in two quite distinct fields: he is in both (i) and (ii). He must therefore assess whether the failure of 'X' is due to (i), (ii) or both in some proportion to one another.

From what I remember and have seen recently, Steenbarger's trading style was day-trading. It could be argued that (i) carries little to zero importance and success lies 100% in (ii). In which case 'psychology' has a large impact.

Taking the coin toss of (i), could/can Steenbarger [himself] make that profitable over a period of time other than a few minutes? Let us say a year. If he can, then he is qualified to coach. The reason I say that is because in theory...in should work. In reality, the mental exhaustion of trading this way would be significant and someone stating theoretically what is required, is simply unrealistic.

The above example is for someone who is more at the novice level.

Steenbarger does not operate at that level. He operates at Hedge Fund/Quant Shop/etc. These guys can already trade and have a positive expectancy model. They may be in a drawdown/slump and need some motivation.

Motivation is a different beast from becoming profitable in the first instance. Steenbarger is not teaching them how to become profitable via (i) and (ii), he is [or should be] re-motivating them to trade [execute] well [better] on an already proven model, viz predominantly (ii).

I therefore question how applicable Steenbarger is to the novice/experimental trader.

Here however is the dichotomy. In the previous examples in this thread, Steenbarger emphasises or deals largely with (i). This infers that he is coaching not execution (ii), but methodology (i). To coach methodology, you need to have positive expectancy models. To trade (i) successfully, you need (ii).

The question therefore is: does/did Steenbarger trade profitably? If yes, then he has at least 1 version of (i) and (ii).

If he doesn't have 1 version of (i), then all the brilliance in (ii) will not help with (i). He will net, net, lose money. To be profitable, both (i) and (ii) must be present. If only one of them is present, you will lose money over time.

2. Which brings us to your position in [2] which is: we are mostly on the same page. Your friend TH was already a good trader. He found benefit in Steenbarger to re-motivate, remind himself of basics, possibly learn some new techniques.

jog on
duc
 
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Ann said:
1. Anyone can make money,

1A. the trick to success is to be able to make money doing something you love and that you are passionate about.

2. Stephen Kalayjian is a day trader who sells a trading system, check out his trading set-up. He puts greatness into five words. I can't get enough of positive motivation, apart from everything else it feels so good.

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1. Yes, anyone can make money. I can work in McDonald's and make money.

1A. Which is what this thread is about. As I stated, trading is about making money. There is no requirement to be 'passionate' about it at all. Clinically bored is just as effective.

The question then is: can anyone make money trading? The answer should be yes, but reality suggests that the actual answer is no.

It is no because: they do not have (i) a positive expectancy model and (ii) the ability to execute consistently.

'Anyone' in possession of (i) and (ii) can make money trading. They may be passionate, like yourself, or vaguely awake, like myself.

jog on
duc
 
ducati916 said:
1. Yes, anyone can make money. I can work in McDonald's and make money.
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They sure can and they can make a fortune from doing so. Just like Warren Buffett and his menial job...
At 13, Buffett took what could have been a mind-numbing job as a paper boy and turned it into a competition with himself. Buffett woke up at 4:30 in the morning to deliver copies of The Washington Post, and he challenged himself to find ways to serve each of his five buildings faster.

Can you feel the passion here folks? :)

ducati916 said:
1A. Which is what this thread is about. As I stated, trading is about making money. There is no requirement to be 'passionate' about it at all. Clinically bored is just as effective.
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This thread is not about making money per se but about doing something you love and doing it better. To live clinically bored is to be imprisoned into a part life. It will flow into all areas of a person's life and relationships. It is a pity when someone makes money in a way that is boring or worse, stressful, especially if they are making substantial money, money can be a doorway to freedom or it can be a doorway into life imprisonment.

ducati916 said:
The question then is: can anyone make money trading? The answer should be yes, but reality suggests that the actual answer is no.
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That is true of any profession. Not everyone can succeed in a chosen career, that is why so many people move into different areas of work throughout their working lives. In earlier times a job was for life, whether you liked it or not. These days people look to the quality of their lives and move away from stultifying or dead-end jobs.

ducati916 said:
It is no because: they do not have (i) a positive expectancy model and (ii) the ability to execute consistently.
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.....or the desire to keep doing something which is not enjoyable for them. I can see how someone would see what we do as mind-numbingly boring, most people have a higher expectation for their lives.

ducati916 said:
'Anyone' in possession of (i) and (ii) can make money trading. They may be passionate, like yourself, or vaguely awake, like myself.
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You are right duc, and I guess it is up to each one of us as to how we choose to live our lives.
 
Ann said:
1. They sure can and they can make a fortune from doing so. Just like Warren Buffett and his menial job...
At 13, Buffett took what could have been a mind-numbing job as a paper boy and turned it into a competition with himself. Buffett woke up at 4:30 in the morning to deliver copies of The Washington Post, and he challenged himself to find ways to serve each of his five buildings faster.

1A. Can you feel the passion here folks? :)



2. This thread is not about making money per se but about doing something you love and doing it better. To live clinically bored is to be imprisoned into a part life. It will flow into all areas of a person's life and relationships. It is a pity when someone makes money in a way that is boring or worse, stressful, especially if they are making substantial money, money can be a doorway to freedom or it can be a doorway into life imprisonment.


3. That is true of any profession. Not everyone can succeed in a chosen career, that is why so many people move into different areas of work throughout their working lives. In earlier times a job was for life, whether you liked it or not. These days people look to the quality of their lives and move away from stultifying or dead-end jobs.



4.....or the desire to keep doing something which is not enjoyable for them. I can see how someone would see what we do as mind-numbingly boring, most people have a higher expectation for their lives.



5. You are right duc, and I guess it is up to each one of us as to how we choose to live our lives.
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1. It is highly unlikely that a menial job, or minimum wage job will ever lead to a fortune directly. It could be a means to an end indirectly.

1A. That is not passion. That is simply a motivational trick. If something is unpleasant, but must be done, you look for ways to make it more palatable. Little competitions with oneself is a common one.

2. Well given that it is a thread re. Steenbarger, and he is predominantly financial markets related, I'd say it's very much about making money. While I accept that there are probably a few hobbyists out there, drawing lines on charts or reading financial statements purely for the 'fun of it', never actually trading any money, most will undertake that for the purpose of making money.

3. Which is why 'passion' is a nonsense premise. Many [most] work in jobs/careers because they have bills to meet. They may 'like' their job, they may hate their job, but most are not passionate about their job. Only the lucky few ever find the job that they would do for free. This is in large measure because they do not have the requisite skill/talent to do what they wish they could do.

4. You have managed to gloss an interpretation which entirely misrepresents my original statement. My meaning is that to be successful in trading/investing, the winning/losing of money does not elicit an emotional response. You are neutral. Bored. In this non-emotional state, you can execute how you should execute [to your pre-existing plan]. To reach that [happy] state you must truly understand your trading methodology and its boundaries. You are calm because whatever is happening, is still within the boundaries of the methodology.

jog on
duc
 
ducati916 said:
I'm generally up fairly early [NZ time] which will obviously be, as tech/a says, a few hours earlier your time.

jog on
duc
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Ok Gotcha …. That means you are normal and I am still the odd one:p … although I have seen @peter2 and a couple of others burning the "midnight oil" at times as well;)
 



Trading Psychology: How to Improve Your Trading Results

Many traders focus on their results--their P/L--and never make the process changes that could lead to sustained results. A great deal of writings in the area of trading psychology emphasize the changes that traders should make--not actual techniques traders could employ to make those changes. When I wrote The Daily Trading Coach, the idea was to create a "cookbook" that would help traders coach themselves, using established, proven techniques from applied psychology.

It's time, however, to update those "how-to's". In the most recent Forbes article, I explain how evidence-based approaches to short-term therapy can be adapted to help us achieve peak performance in our trading--and in our personal lives. This is a major development in psychology. Until recently, change techniques have been used to help troubled people reduce their problems. They have equal value, however, in achieving positives as "therapies for the mentally well." More..
 
Ann said:
... the importance of feeling pain when we're trading poorly.
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I'd say that's my number one tip in terms of trading psychology. Knowing how to feel pain fully (the pain of loss or missed opportunity) and release it. Indispensible.
 
Gringotts Bank said:
to feel pain fully (the pain of loss or missed opportunity) and release it. Indispensable.
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To be able to 'release it fully' means that the punter involved must have "evolved" from his/her previous past "indiscretions" ….. And has likely/hopefully become aware of WHY that happened;). .. (first step)

To accept … then "release" ….. is the precursor to profit …. IF the punter has formulated a trading plan of attack which actually works:eek:

In essence … I agree;):D …..

Of course, if said Punter has further issues which may be sabotaging their "revelation" …..

More work will be required:p;)
 
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