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TraderFeed - Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D.

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Bored-
weariness, ennui, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest, lack of concern, apathy, uninterestedness, unconcern, languor, sluggishness, accidie, malaise, world-weariness;
frustration, dissatisfaction, restlessness, restiveness;
tedium, tediousness, dullness, monotony, repetitiveness, lack of variety, lack of variation, flatness, blandness, sameness, uniformity, routine, humdrum, dreariness, lack of excitement

Bored is exactly what you want/need, as per the available meanings of the word.

jog on
duc
 
Nowhere does it say the coach needs to be a better player, or even be a player.

Quite true.

However, as already alluded to, those that can't, teach, those that can, do.

Now that isn't strictly true and there are [and will be exceptions] but, in the markets, I simply don't buy into the fact that someone who doesn't trade, is fully qualified through applying psychological counselling, to fix the issues a failing trader has.

Yes, improve an already successful trader;
Yes, help a formerly successful trader recover from bad habits fallen into;
Yes, take someone on the verge of profitability to profitability;

No to taking a failed trader from failure to success.

The issue for me therefore is this: in theory, trading the markets is simplicity itself. There are many successful strategies. Many are very easy to implement [once discovered or taught] yet, successful traders are not in the ascendancy. Why?

In part, because, as simple as [theoretical] trading is, actual trading is very difficult. Unless Mr Steenbarger is a successful trader, he has nothing to offer when you are actually in the trenches.

When someone is shooting at you, the advice [theoretical] would be duc, hide behind something solid, get away.

What often happens is, people freeze and get shot. You see this in many other emergency situations, people freeze, deer in the headlights syndrome. While trading is not terminal in this sense, it is the same [similar] feeling, especially early on. Some can overcome this, others cannot. Those that cannot, should not trade.

jog on
duc
 
I find it interesting when people try to diminish others who are demonstrably more successful than the critic. It is the 'tall poppy' syndrome. Ego driven I would suspect.

Now you are simply being silly.

jog on
duc
 
..and now a bit of positivity from the Man...!

Finding Your Transformation
Consider: role models are everywhere. We can find positive role models who inspire us, or we can find negative role models that so fill us with disgust that we're able to do what Courtney does at the end of her song: turn our backs, throw up our hands, give a little "mwah", and move in a different direction.

There is a lot of positive that can be derived from negative role models. Utilizing the deformation of negative role models as positive life motivation is the ultimate transformation.

Awakening Your Talent

When we access our strengths--what we do best--we gain access to what we call the "zone" or the flow state. In that state, we tap into parts of ourselves that are relatively submerged during normal, day-to-day life.

In a very important sense, when we are in sync with our talents, we become different people. I couldn't agree more with Market Wizard Ed Seykota when he pointed out that great traders have absorbed their talent: "They don't have the talent--the talent has them."

Good traders have talent--and skill and motivation and discipline. But great is a different beast. It's when the talent drives everything and the performer becomes a channel for his or her strengths. When the talents have us, we are transformed. Success depends upon our ability to effect that transformation: to go from the good to the great.


What Is YOUR Self-Talk?

...How we process the world--and how we talk to ourselves about ourselves and world--shapes our reality. That, in turn, defines what we experience as possible and impossible and shapes our actions. Nowhere is this more true than in trading, where we are constantly dealing with issues of being right and wrong, uncertainty, and making/losing money...

...It's great to reassure ourselves, accept losses, and find learning lessons in our setbacks. That is necessary for a solid trading psychology, but is it sufficient? If our self-talk is not intensely challenging, how will we intensively tackle new challenges? A calm mindset is helpful at times, but sedentary calm will never rouse us to do better, do more, and throw ourselves into challenges that expand who we are and what we can do.

How inspiring and challenging is your self-talk?
 
The Fallacy Behind Conventional Trading Psychology

.....We hear it all the time: trading is mostly a mental game, all you need to do is tame your emotions once you have a winning trading method, etc. etc.

Total and complete bullsh*t...

If markets were stable and discipline could sustain profitability, then backtested trading systems would forever remain profitable. There would be no need for discretionary traders whatsoever....

...When the market slows down, we have fewer data points. When the market is less volatile, the standard deviation units represent less movement. The chart is one way to standardize price action--make it more stable--given shifting activity and volatility. Thus standardized, we can ask intelligent questions about trend, the presence/non-presence of stable cycles, etc. Those questions can help us frame trading strategies in the midst of market changes.

When we do so--perhaps by relying on a repeating cycle to enter/exit trades in the direction of the overall trend--we have a clearer idea of what we're doing and why we're doing it. That anchors our understanding and our trading decisions and, thus anchored, lo and behold: trading becomes less emotionally fraught......


Taking The Ego Out Of Trading


...What we attach our egos to controls us.

If trades and trading are our only activities filled with purpose, we will overtrade. If we judge our success and failure by profits and losses, our moods will rise and fall with market conditions.

It sounds so great: the "passion" for trading. Too often, however, that belies an ego-attachment to trading...

A great first step in taking the ego out of trading is evaluating our trading by process criteria, not by profits and losses alone. If we focus on placing good trades, our trading can build mindfulness, intentionality, and resilience...

...At the end of the day, however, trading cannot sustain us always, in all ways. We need not just the pleasures, victories, and gratifications of the ego, but also the energy, connectedness, and fulfillment of the soul. It is amazing how much easier it is to tackle trading challenges when trading is not burdened with needs it was never meant to fill.

The question is not simply whether we live a successful life or an unsuccessful one. The question is whether we live a full life or an empty one.

Navigating Turmoil and Opportunity in Markets

In life we find that periods of turmoil are often the periods of greatest growth and development. Psychologically, turmoil shakes us up and challenges our assumptions. That opens us to new experiences and major life changes. My marriage (going on 35 years strong) came after a period of personal and career turmoil; those taught me what I needed in life. Similarly, it was the sting of losses I took in markets in the early 1980s that led me to re-evaluate my trading and take a more promising and profitable quantitative direction. From a spiritual perspective, our task is to find the opportunity in turmoil...

...So that is our challenge during periods of turmoil. To win the game, we have to stay in the game. That requires prudence. But to truly win, we have to use turmoil to find opportunity. That requires optimism, resilience, and vision. A solid business plan addresses threats and opportunities...we may be entering a period replete with both.


Beyond Coping: The Inspiration Mindset

...During periods of flat performance or drawdown in markets, trading can feel like an exercise in coping. I recognize this when I speak with traders and hear nothing of the excitement, challenge, discovery, and growth that initially attracted them to markets. It is like speaking to a person who was once in love and now copes with a relationship that has lost its romantic spark. The trader may choose to work on problem A, B, or C, but it's all just different deck chairs on the Titanic. The problem is not A,B,or C, but the devolution to the coping level. The problem is the absence of inspiration: the way in which trading has become divorced from value, meaning, and purpose.

Traders who sustain an inspiration mindset find value and meaning in markets above and beyond recent performance. They discover new opportunities through research; they learn new things in their professional networks; they benefit from developing teams and mentoring up and coming talent; they use their trading as a way to develop themselves as people. To sustain an inspiration mindset means figuring out how to make negative P/L days winning days in process terms.

Coping and inspiration mindsets are self-reinforcing. Others respond to the energy we project. If we come across as inspired, others are attracted to the meaning and fulfillment we radiate. If we are absorbed in coping, our negative vibe will attract a very different tribe.


 
Just to keep the thread in perspective … Brett Steenbarger did and has traded …. He was most active in the late 90's and almost exclusively traded the S and P.

He states in interviews that as he became employed to "teach" other traders it became impractical to hold and manage positions while he was trying to "educate" others.

As late as 2006 he was still trading the ES when possible but more like a "sniper" waiting for opportunities rather than trading volume for the sake of it.

Obviously being a successful Coach was less stressful and more lucrative without the associated risks so I guess his transition was a natural progression.

I don't know if he still trades actively but I doubt he needs to

He has always stated:

"only trade with money you can afford to lose"
"proper money management is the best psychological stress management technique there is"
"having multiple income streams is important" and trading is just one of those, and in his case certainly not the most important in his life. …

In a nut shell, its all about context and balance … makes sense to me
 
barney said:
Just to keep the thread in perspective … Brett Steenbarger did and has traded …. He was most active in the late 90's and almost exclusively traded the S and P.
Click to expand...

Thanks barney, thought this was the case but didn't want to make a false assumption.

Quoting ducati916 from an earlier post..

Bored-
weariness, ennui, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest, lack of concern, apathy, uninterestedness, unconcern, languor, sluggishness, accidie, malaise, world-weariness;
frustration, dissatisfaction, restlessness, restiveness;
tedium, tediousness, dullness, monotony, repetitiveness, lack of variety, lack of variation, flatness, blandness, sameness, uniformity, routine, humdrum, dreariness, lack of excitement

Bored is exactly what you want/need, as per the available meanings of the word.[/QUOTE]

Skate clicked a like to Duc's post so I am guessing he agreed with the sentiment as well.

I can't imagine what a spiritually, psychologically or emotionally crippling mentally this must be for those two people!

At the risk of taking this off topic, let me describe how it feels for me to make a trade....

I find a stock I am interested in for whatever reason, then I get in deep and meaningful with the chart and look at it in all angles and over all time frames. Then I look at the company, who they are what they do, who runs it, does it pay a dividend, what is the overall influence in a more macro sense and then as much as my ability with FA will allow with figures, which is limited because I don't trust historic figures anyway.
By this time I have a kind of intimacy with the stock, I know when I want to enter, I can see where there are support lines, I can see where there may be a potential retrace or overhead resistance. It is much like entering into a relationship. This is the tingly time of anticipation when all you can see is this stock, everything else pales.
Then the day comes when I work out the trade in dollar terms, choose how many I am going to buy and place the order, it is time for the entry. The feeling as that stock becomes mine is almost orgasmic. I am in heaven for the day, in love as it were. When our partnership commences, some times it gives me total satisfaction with a big rise, other time it teases me and slips down looking at me coyly, tricked you it says! I look back saying....I can wait!

When it is time to part, we both know when it is over, I thank it for the time we had together, what it has given me and wish it well for the future, knowing we will never be together again. As it slips off my screen into another's hands I feel a peaceful relief.

If you are new to trading, I can only wish you have as much pleasure as I have had over the last couple of decades of trading, it is the most pleasurable and exhilarating experience and my words can never do justice to the feeling I get. Boredom would be the very last emotion I would ever experience in the markets, if this emotion ever happened to me as a trader, at any time within the whole process, I would immediately stop trading the markets. I love the markets with a passion.

Is there anyone else who has a love and a passion for the markets who would love to share their positive emotions with a trade?
 
ducati916 said:
However, as already alluded to, those that can't, teach, those that can, do.
Click to expand...

Yes because playing is one skillset and coaching is another. If you asked Tiger Woods how to hit a good ball, he wouldn't have a clue because his cognitions would be completely removed from his muscle memory. It has to be this way. If you start thinking, you're dead. Trading is the same - you don't want to be thinking, you want to be 'in the flow' and doing. Any thinking must be done after market.

Woods' coach would have enough physical talent to relate to an elite athlete, but importantly, he would have adavnced observation skills, insight and an ability to cognize these. With these he can make useful suggestions to Woods. Top athletes don't employ coaches for no reason. They are too expensive.

I do the trading and my own self-coaching. They are completely separate activities. One thing I absolutely don't want to be is bored. The single most important thing I have found (in terms of creating profit) is to have my mood pumped and to feel enthusiasm.
 

Here is an article outlining Steenbarger's trading career:

http://www.fxtradermagazine.com/forex-training/Brett-Steenbarger-interview.php

He doesn't state how successful he was 1982 - 1990, when it appears he gave up trading for coaching.

jog on
duc
 
The short point is this:

There are many ways to be profitable in the market.

If you find one and are [very] comfortable with it, almost by definition, you will execute it well [your methodology].

If you are given a profitable strategy [methodology] and you fail with it, almost by definition, you will be executing poorly. It is in this scenario that Steenbarger operates. The system is profitable. The trader is the weak link. Can psychological intervention/coaching/etc, turn this chap around?

In other words is it the chicken or the egg? Nature or nurture?

My argument is: the trader is pretty much doomed, because, for whatever reason, he is not comfortable with that methodology. Until he finds, or is given a methodology that gels with his psych, he is fighting a losing battle.

Many prop shops have a number of strategies that they employ. You have to use one or more of them. It is in this type of environment Steenbarger also operates. Trying to improve their [traders] execution of [presumably] profitable strategies.

His blog [I'm guessing] is an extension of this work for private traders.

The takeaway: no amount of coaching/psychological intervention will help if you are trading the wrong system/style for you. If it is not a natural fit, you will constantly fight it. Then, at the points of major melt downs, you will likely crumble [again].

jog on
duc
 

In this post, we get to the nub of the problem.

Elite golfers, tennis players, swimmers, whatever, already know how to hit balls, swim, etc. If they didn't they most certainly would not be where they are. They can execute [to a high standard] the skillset required.

Coaches of elite athletes do not teach them how to hit/swim/etc. They ensure that mentally they are ready to compete day-in-day-out at the level they require to win against other athletes of similar talent and skills to themselves.

Competing at the top of any sport or endeavour, is exhausting mentally. That is the purview of the coach, maintaining that mental strength. Not teaching them how to hit a golf ball etc, viz execution.

Steenbarger is the equivalent for traders. He helps maintain [good/elite] traders mental strength in competing against other traders and or the markets. They already know how to trade. They can execute. Losses, in this sort of environment can [and do] sap mental energy. They drain confidence. Before too long, a good trader can have a confidence issue that impairs his performance. It is this environment that coaching can work.

jog on
duc
 

Well I your this view on the trading person .... , and I read this persons CV ... three different versions of it !!!


I loved this quote ... from one version ... In very late 1990, I was reading an online column written by Victor Niederhoffer .... My favorite movie was ANIMAL HOUSE ... and Douglass Niederhoffers brother was called Victor. Douglass was the cruel guy who had the horse in the movie.

I read Mr Steenburgers .... views and even his trading blog, it was amusing and a display of wrong calls that astounded me as to their lack of understanding of WHAT drives markets, valuations and even basic monetary and fiscal policy.

Now I know why he needs multiple income sources.

BS .... Quotes ...
Skills that make a professional trader very successful begin with recognizing market patterns.

It goes on and on about charting ... whilst I use it, if I purchased a worthless stock WITHOUT knowing its underlying valuation .... I would be an idiot paying $1.00 for a stock worth 1 cent ...

Maybe the patterns he alludes to are ... the fabric of clothing ?

He goes on and on ...
retail traders need training in recognizing patterns in markets more than they need psychology.

I found a pattern book so I can recognize what dress a woman is wearing and it helps greatly with reading the rest of his interview and blogs.


Bottom line, look at the Fortune 500 or Forbes rich list or the BRW rich list and if you find a chartist .... on any of them ... good luck.

I am trying NOT to be rude about this person, and having the ability to read ... his drivel ... I came off wondering if he was going to sell me a secret trading pattern book ... to his secret secret system ... that has him needing to have multiple income sources since it ... works ... NOT
 
Do you really need to be on BRW's rich list?

To be successful do you really need to trade for a living?

Everytime I see an educator mentioned on ASF they end up being
canned. Everyone of them. So How do you learn?
When can you offer something up?

How did you learn (anyone can answer this question).

Personally if I think someone has something to offer then Ill pay them
to gain from them what it is I think they have that Id like to learn or gain.
Some pan out others don't.
My choice. I learn by learning or NOT learning!

If I have something someone perceives has value to them and offers to pay for it
I MAY (Never have yet) take up that offer. Why wouldn't you in any field.

My boxing coach boxed professionally and lost more fights than he won. I payed
him to learn boxing--- was his skill less valuable?
Since then MMA came around and exponents of Krav Maga. Deadly. On the
street Id rather be proficient at Krav. So I pay to learn. Is my boxing coach less valuable?
He doesn't practice Krav!
 
ducati916 said:
He doesn't state how successful he was 1982 - 1990, when it appears he gave up trading for coaching.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Duc.

I've read a couple of his Interviews … He was like many traders … He lost a lot early and went on a quest to find out how to stop doing that.

By the late 90's he was very active and I assume he was doing ok given large organisations were happy to pay him to Coach …. He states he traded with a large account but traded with minimal risk/smaller positions to keep stress to a minimum.

For me ….. it was more the fact that @Trembling Hand was an advocate for many of Steenbarger's approaches which gives him credibility. I have no idea how successful BS was, but I know how good TH was when he was kicking around ASF.

Many years ago I watched TH turn a $1000 account into just under $20K in 4 days trading Futures …. (in his spare time) .. Obviously TH learned his craft over many years from many sources, but he told me that Steenbarger was a useful resource as part of that learning process.[/QUOTE]
 
Reactions: Ann
tech/a said:
So How do you learn?
When can you offer something up?
Click to expand...

Sorry did not mean to offend.
Each to their own. I note your a tech trading guy, and YEP I use it ,,, but mixture ...

I have offered a few ideas on this thread.
Sadly, whilst I accept your comments about teachers and so on being bagged, its a sad reality someone with your experience knows well.

There is no secret technical trading system that ensures profits every time. There are I suppose more than 10 million people trading shirt term globally, searching for this.

Having seen the likes of some of these educators and system sellers, some worse than others, the amount some have paid, for utterly useless stuff is astounding.

I shared some of my background, since 1983 ... and how did I learn ? ... over a very long time and what I thought I knew .... was convinced I knew ... to be correct ... often now is the total opposite of what is factual.

Life is like that. Buying on breaks, technically, is I suppose the opposite to my views. I prefer to have some idea of potential value of a stock, buy into fear and mayhem ....

each to their own. Apologies for offending.

I think I have a few things on this thread, about views and sharing better and more profitable investing and even short term trading.

Number one as always is stop loss.
 
kahuna1 said:
Sorry did not mean to offend.
Each to their own. I note your a tech trading guy, and YEP I use it ,,, but mixture ...
Click to expand...

No offence taken. Its a genuine Question.

I have offered a few ideas on this thread.
Sadly, whilst I accept your comments about teachers and so on being bagged, its a sad reality someone with your experience knows well.
Click to expand...

Yes I get that but are you saying specifically Brett is in the snake oil sales man batch?
His PHD in psychology has no relevance---there is nothing for traders to learn from him
because he DOESNT TRADE. So someone who trades with no PHD in Psychology is better
qualified?

There is no secret technical trading system that ensures profits every time. There are I suppose more than 10 million people trading shirt term globally, searching for this.
Click to expand...

Nor is any fundamental trading method a guarantee either. Sure less that 5% find it. It is there though!!

Having seen the likes of some of these educators and system sellers, some worse than others, the amount some have paid, for utterly useless stuff is astounding.
Click to expand...

Yes I've seen them. Stood up in a crowd of 350 people at one and asked about 4 awkward questions to the presenter of a $15,000 Options course--The room eventually turned against me
And were lined up to part with $15,000

I shared some of my background, since 1983 ... and how did I learn ? ... over a very long time and what I thought I knew .... was convinced I knew ... to be correct ... often now is the total opposite of what is factual.
Click to expand...

I would suggest you could be profitable just like a bush pilot can fly---but Id also suggest you could gain a lot from experts
even if indirectly related to the way you trade.

Life is like that. Buying on breaks, technically, is I suppose the opposite to my views. I prefer to have some idea of potential value of a stock, buy into fear and mayhem ....
Click to expand...

Well Im yet to see a prolonged move that did'nt start from a Breakout! I find "Potential" value to be as subjective as T/A!

each to their own. Apologies for offending.
Click to expand...

as above.

I think I have a few things on this thread, about views and sharing better and more profitable investing and even short term trading.

Number one as always is stop loss.
Click to expand...

Strangely over time My stop loss has become a tool for position sizing.
It moves mostly daily until its at B/E.
I use it to improve my R/R
 
Reactions: rnr
tech/a said:
I would suggest you could be profitable just like a bush pilot can fly---but Id also suggest you could gain a lot from experts
even if indirectly related to the way you trade.
Click to expand...

Okey dokey ...

I did hit a raw nerve.
I don't trade, I did once, the start of my career, don't need to .. or desire to trade as such.

Each to their own .. as to experts, ... if only you knew.

Seemingly, you know who and what I am. If I have only had one job, one art since 1983 ... maybe ... maybe ... 36 years latter, no other industry or profession, maybe ... I am slightly different to what you believe you think you may know about me.

Hilarious.
 
kahuna1 said:
Okey dokey ...

I did hit a raw nerve.
Click to expand...

?? The above suggestion implies Im offended? How?

I don't trade, I did once, the start of my career, don't need to .. or desire to trade as such.
Click to expand...

Similar.

Each to their own .. as to experts, ... if only you knew.
Click to expand...

Please what is it I should know?

Seemingly, you know who and what I am. If I have only had one job, one art since 1983 ... maybe ... maybe ... 36 years latter, no other industry or profession, maybe ... I am slightly different to what you believe you think you may know about me.
Click to expand...

I have no idea who or what you are. Perhaps if I did-----------
I have no opinion of you.

Hilarious.
Click to expand...

As you say each to there own--I don't see the hilarity I'm afraid.
 
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