The West has lost its freedom of speech

What "fact" would that be exactly?

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That there are people who are deliberately offensive to get attention and sell more papers or magazines.

Do you deny this ?

Of course they have a right to do what they do/did, some of them may even be funny. And before you start calling me an apologist for terrorists I hope the murderers are hunted down, and preferably terminated with extreme prejudice.

However just because people use their freedom of expression to insult people instead of engaging in rational debate doesn't mean we have to exalt them as some sort of secular Messiahs. Clever satirical cartoons can be used very strategically to prove a point. If that is the sort of output that Charlie Ebdo produces, good luck to them. If they just indulge in gratuitous denigration then that's another matter.

No one deserves to be murdered for their views, but we still have to make a rational assessment of the value of their works to society in general.

Macquack said:

We will only have a true "secular democracy" when we get rid of ALL government funding for ALL religious based schools.

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... and remove all tax advantages for religion-based organisations

Note, I'm not talking about charitable organisations. Red Cross, Flying Doctors, Fire Fighters, Soup Kitchens, Op Shops are charitable without the need to profess a particular creed. They deserve all support they can get.

Sadly, it won't happen though because there are votes in bigotry, even if it's only lip service that pledges to treat every creed claiming to be a religion as a bona fide religion.

FxT and C45:
While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts that are designed to provoke others. Continued violations of this rule will result in the permanent suspension of your ASF account.

You know which posts I refer to. I have edited them out and hope we can return to a less acrimonious debate.

SirRumpole said:

That there are people who are deliberately offensive to get attention and sell more papers or magazines. Do you deny this?

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They go by various titles, shock jocks, cartoonists, comedians, satirists etc. There is nothing disreputable about mocking human actions, beliefs and attitudes. If you turn off to many people you lose your job and hence your podium. I find fascist ideas and speech disturbing but the best remedy is to mock their ideology and discredit their propaganda.

However just because people use their freedom of expression to insult people instead of engaging in rational debate doesn't mean we have to exalt them as some sort of secular Messiahs. Clever satirical cartoons can be used very strategically to prove a point. If that is the sort of output that Charlie Ebdo produces, good luck to them. If they just indulge in gratuitous denigration then that's another matter.

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You've missed my point entirely to attack a straw man. Insulting "people" is not the issue, these people died for insulting the prophet. A dead warlord masquerading as a mouthpiece for a fictional God. It's unlikely that anyone would take offense and kill me if I mocked belief in Zeus or someone claiming to be his prophet because it's understood to be myth.

No one deserves to be murdered for their views, but we still have to make a rational assessment of the value of their works to society in general.

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To what end? Censorship or laws banning the expression of their views? What we need is a "rational assessment" of the liabilities of religion instead.

Chris45 said:

I suppose I should also start with the predictable "of course I'm not condoning violence, but....." ... I followed a link to a page that showed some of the cartoons with English translations, and if that's what the French regard as humour, then I don't think much of French humour!
http://gawker.com/what-is-charlie-hebdo-and-why-a-mostly-complete-histo-1677959168

Satire is supposed to be clever and witty. Most of those "cartoons" are simply puerile rubbish.

The CH cartoonists seem to be lacking in talent and have to resort to toilet humour to make up for their shortcomings.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...ogressive,q_80,w_636/bjmir4cbrhsrfdwzxiux.png

Freedom of speech is a myth. The West enjoys freer speech than most of the rest of the world, but with that freedom comes the responsibility to exercise it wisely, and intelligent cartoonists understand that.

We all have to try and live together harmoniously and I have no sympathy for so called "artists" who set out to be as offensive as possible to others to get themselves known. We're better off without idiots like that.

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OK on second read, perhaps it is just very poorly, naively and insensitively written- it is easy to read this and think you are attributing blame to the victims, suggesting a level of deservedness, and even a sentiment of condonement ( we are better off...) - which is incredibly disturbing if that is the case.

Your comment remains in poor taste, is poorly timed and offensive - your outrage could find a much more appropriate target C45.

Sure you could say some of the satire is base and offensive - but really, cant get much more base and offensive than some of the Koran/bible content. At least the satirist can provoke a bit of critical thought from time to time.

lindsayf said:

OK on second read, perhaps it is just very poorly, naively and insensitively written- it is easy to read this and think you are attributing blame to the victims, suggesting a level of deservedness, and even a sentiment of condonement ( we are better off...) - which is incredibly disturbing if that is the case.

Your comment remains in poor taste, is poorly timed and offensive - your outrage could find a much more appropriate target C45.

Sure you could say some of the satire is base and offensive - but really, cant get much more base and offensive than some of the Koran/bible content. At least the satirist can provoke a bit of critical thought from time to time.

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Well said Lindsay, +1. I found it incredibly disturbing and morally bankrupt (hence my strong response), akin to the actions of fanatical Christians in the U.S. who taunt people attending the funerals of dead servicemen. We should all have the decency to show sympathy for the dead and their grieving relatives at such a difficult time.

To what end? Censorship or laws banning the expression of their views?

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No, just a personal assessment to decide whether we want to buy their product or not.

What we need is a "rational assessment" of the liabilities of religion instead.

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By all means let's have this, I just wonder whether insults and denigration are the best way of doing it. That's dragging ourselves down to the level of some of the religious doggerel we are trying to dismiss.

lindsayf said:

...... At least the satirist can provoke a bit of critical thought from time to time.

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That's the whole point of cartooning. To go over the top or outside the square and make the reader think about the cartoon content.

From the Real News Network.

Meanwhile closer to home we're arresting people in Queensland for mocking a political campaign and we're stifling freedom of speech in Tasmania too.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...178179455?sv=538577154ae827a2eda61e8a8a4081f9

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/p...efamation-magnet/story-fnpp9w4j-1227176354947

Neither are good developments in my view. Whether or not someone agrees with a particular point of view, it is absolutely critical to the functioning of our society that such views can be expressed without fear.

pixel said:

FxT and C45:
While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts that are designed to provoke others. Continued violations of this rule will result in the permanent suspension of your ASF account.

You know which posts I refer to. I have edited them out and hope we can return to a less acrimonious debate.

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Pixel, point taken. May I draw your attention to the inflammatory comments in the last paragraph of post #49?

Islam is the most problematic religion on Earth and we should be calmly, but firmly, resisting its attempts to infiltrate us and ultimately dominate us. Boycotting Halal certified food and objecting to the building of mosques, etc are simple acts of resistance we can all do, as well as rejecting socialist, bleeding heart politicians who favour Muslims.

France now has a serious Muslim problem, but they have created it for themselves so now they have to deal with it, ... and no one can tell the French what to do.

Of course I condemn the barbarous murders in Paris, as I condemn all acts of terrorism and wanton violence, but I'm not going to shed crocodile tears and run around holding up a silly "Je suis Charlie" sign in support of a bunch of arrogant French artists who frankly should have known better.

My compassion is directed to the innocent victims of this horrific massacre ... the cops who were slaughtered in their line of duty, plus any others who were innocently caught up in the event.

Actions have reactions and we all know that Muslims take their prophet very seriously and those cartoonists knew perfectly well what they were doing when they published their provocative and insulting drawings, and it does not surprise me that a couple of extremists one day decided to whack them. And if that sounds callous and insensitive then sorry but they should have heeded the first message that was sent to them when their office was burnt down.

Calm and firm resolve to resist the Islamic takeover is what we need, and what we don't need are arrogant film makers, cartoonists and other provocateurs, and the fools who support them, who delight in insulting particular groups of people and desecrating their religious icons, monuments, grave stones, etc, etc ... things that they hold sacred ... under the guise of "freedom of speech", for their own personal gain ... and I disagree with those who think that this is acceptable behaviour.

But rather than seeing them executed I would prefer to see them firmly re-educated to redirect their energies into more productive activities.

What "free speech" we enjoy in this country is something that should be treasured and not exploited and abused for the sake of notoriety and personal gain. Our cartoonists seem to understand that concept and exercise appropriate restraint when expressing their views, and for that I congratulate them.

Chris, you make some very valid points.

A letter to "The Weekend Australian" today raises the issue of academic Barry Spurr's being effectively forced to resign from his position after someone hacked his emails which were then published by "New Matilda" and included some pejorative comments about various groups.

So, while there is much insistence that cartoonists should be able to say and depict whatever they wish, no matter how provocative, apparently we don't extend the same permission to our university professors.

At least I suppose Professor Spurr is still alive and perhaps that is the essential difference?

Separately, there has apparently been some vandalism of mosques in France. People are surprised at this????
An expression of anger and disgust, but at least one which does not endanger human life.

Chris45 said:

Islam is the most problematic religion on Earth

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They're all based on unsubstantiated claims, its just that Islam's claims have more harmful practical implications than the others.

I agree that we should resist it in practical ways.

Smurf1976 said:

I agree that we should resist it in practical ways.

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So do I. The problem is that there is no hierarchy in Islam as there is in say the Catholic church. It all depends on the local mullahs and what their attitude is.

Keeping track of the local Muslim leaders and what they teach their adherents is essential. Then you also have the problem of radicalisation via Internet. Surely the most violent jihadist sites could be blocked, but then people use VPN's to spread child pornography so supposedly the jihadists do the same.

Difficult situation that requires international cooperation.

Julia said:

Chris, you make some very valid points.

A letter to "The Weekend Australian" today raises the issue of academic Barry Spurr's being effectively forced to resign from his position after someone hacked his emails which were then published by "New Matilda" and included some pejorative comments about various groups.

So, while there is much insistence that cartoonists should be able to say and depict whatever they wish, no matter how provocative, apparently we don't extend the same permission to our university professors.

At least I suppose Professor Spurr is still alive and perhaps that is the essential difference?

Separately, there has apparently been some vandalism of mosques in France. People are surprised at this????
An expression of anger and disgust, but at least one which does not endanger human life.

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Julia, thank you, and that's an interesting point about the Barry Spurr emails. It's disturbing that New Matilda were allowed to get away with publishing his private emails. That's verging on "thought police". It would be different if he had published his views on a public forum.

But there appears to be one rule for cartoonists and another for everyone else.

I suppose the same could be said about the Andrew Bolt "It's so hip to be black" article.

Clearly a double standard there.

[southpark muhammad episode 201 censored!!] - West officially surrenders to radical islam!!!

SirRumpole said:

So do I. The problem is that there is no hierarchy in Islam as there is in say the Catholic church. It all depends on the local mullahs and what their attitude is.

Keeping track of the local Muslim leaders and what they teach their adherents is essential.

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Yes, and we need the help of the moderate Muslims to enable us to rid our communities of these radical clerics who preach hatred and violent jihadism, and we should not risk alienating them by allowing irresponsible cartoonists to insult them with their puerile and offensive drawings under the guise of "free speech".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-threat-admits-former-chief-prosecutor.html

Apparently his conviction was based on the testimony of moderate Muslim informers who infiltrated his fiefdom, although the security services were hamstrung by human rights laws and for many years were unable to act on the information they were given.

These jihadist clerics, as well as the human rights lawyers who protect and defend them, are the people the cartoonists need to focus their pencils on.

C45 says;

I'm not going to shed crocodile tears and run around holding up a silly "Je suis Charlie" sign in support of a bunch of arrogant French artists who frankly should have known better.

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Rumpole says;

However just because people use their freedom of expression to insult people instead of engaging in rational debate doesn't mean we have to exalt them as some sort of secular Messiahs.

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I think they are backing the wrong side. I don't think that either of them realises that allah is an imaginary god. Can they explain how an imaginary god can have a prophet?

Satire is the best weapon against nonsense. These men are the true martyrs. Not the Jihadists who were killed.

Chris45 said:

Islam is the most problematic religion on Earth .

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It depends very much on what time period and what brand of religion you're talking about. If it's today's Taliban and Al-Qaeda perverted version of Saudi-style Wahhabism, you may have a point. But turn the clock back 500 years and contemplate Spanish Catholicism, and the Incas, who were murdered by Spanish Conquistadors, would strongly disagree. As would the Canaanites two millennia before that, when "The Chosen People" killed them for their "Land of Milk and Honey". Or how about Australian peoples, who had lived scores of millennia in harmony with nature on the basis of their Dreaming: I can think of a few reasons why they might consider the Christian Missionaries as more problematic than any other "visitors".

On the other hand, Islam had a Golden Era when it dragged Europe out of the post-Roman Dark Ages.

Do yourself a favour and read post #298 of https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29119
You will be amazed to find a truly enlightened side of Islam. Without Science and teaching of Islamic schools from the 9th century onward, Western Civilisation would arguably never have come off the ground.