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The Voice

The Voice is likely to be dominated by city dwelling elites who can't possibly represent all the tribes of the ATSI population
That's your opinion, and it is baseless.
In any event, it's local representation that will be key to providing input. Have you read any of the hundreds pages of input to get where we are now?
I daresay there will be some smart people on the Voice who can present decent policy options from the ground up processes that will be in place. When I worked with ATSIC in Townsville the first nations people in the agency were every bit as competent as the better educated non indigenous folk I worked with in Canberra.
 
ATSIC was a representative body.

What happened to it and why ?
 

Just to add to the litigation issue which the legal people call 'justiciable' here's a piece from what I believe was an ABC interview with Marcia Langton, one of the architects of the Voice.

MOORE: So does the executive government mean advice to department heads, advice to Cabinet, advice to bureaucrats?

LANGTON: Well, obviously it’s going to mean advice to department heads. That’s how government works. And one of the problems that has been raised – and I don’t accept it but I’m just explaining it to you – by Greg Craven is the view that nothing that the Voice advises should be justiciable – or be able to be taken to court. So, I ask, why would we restrict the Voice to making representations that can’t be challenged in court and how could we ever predict whether some vexatious litigant mightn’t take a matter to court? So, you know here’s the problem. This is what really shocks me about Craven’s view on this. People want a fair process but then they don’t want anything that indigenous people say to be subject to Australian laws in the same way that every matter is. Coming from a lawyer I find that really odd.

MOORE: The point from Greg Craven, who we should point out is an adviser to the referendum working group, he gives legal advice and what he’s saying is if the Voice is making representations to the Executive government, his concern is it could be challenged. If a government decision is made without listening to the Voice it could be challenged in the High Court and potentially stopped from being implemented until the Voice had been heard.

LANGTON: That is a possibility and why would we not want that to be the case?

 
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Totally irrelevant anyone can approach the high court for any reason whether they will hear and consider the case is another matter, if its a problem the government of the day can legislate.
 
The Voice is likely to be dominated by city dwelling elites who can't possibly represent all the tribes of the ATSI population

Like it happens now though parliament and academic's?
 

Former High Court justice Kenneth Hayne backs Voice to Parliament details​


"A lot of people have spent a long time trying to think 'well, what possible quirks, [legal] minefields, could there be?' I think there are none," Hayne tells ABC RN's Law Report.
Hayne, who is part of an expert legal panel that has been advising the Indigenous working group on the Voice, also hit back at calls for more detail.

"It will be the parliament that decides the details about how the Voice is set up. It will be the parliament that decides how its representations are dealt with … And to my mind, that is exactly how it should be," he says.

"It should be like that, because the constitution sets out principles. It does not set out machinery. Machinery can and should change as times change. And it's parliament that will do that, not the referendum. So I think asking for details is a distraction."

 
Look out they will be coming for your back yard next... remember that little beauty with the rise of land rights?

Land returned to Eastern Maar people in Victoria’s first native title decision in a decade​



Traditional owners granted right to access land stretching from Ararat to Warrnambool, encompassing much of the Great Ocean Road and Great Otway national park

 
And the idea that each distinct culture group is represented by "The Voive" is also beyond silly.
Successive governments have not been effective in "closing the gap" and the Voice ensures that there is a pre-emptive and proactive process to policy.
And the Voice will magically close the gap?
it will be like a;ll the other great burecratic ideas, another way to water money.
In the case of existing policies that are not well targeted the Voice may directly advise the executive of potential changes.
And all the other myriad of Aboriginal groups cannot do that now?
The Voice does NOT affect you unless you are a first nations person.
What a stupid statement. You or any body else have no idea what changes will or will not be required due to representation of the voice.
Non Aborignal people have already been locked out of some areas of Australia, and need permits for other areas. Some fishing grounds have been closed, some national parks closed , all in the name of protecting Aboriginal culture. All of these affect non Aboriginals to varying degrees.
And finally, neither you or any of the other fervent supporters have explained yet why we need to entire system enshrined in the constitution. The whole voice thing could have already been enacted and be up and running should the government have decided to do so, regardless of the population's opinions.
Mick
 
Totally irrelevant anyone can approach the high court for any reason whether they will hear and consider the case is another matter, if its a problem the government of the day can legislate.
To get a bit of an understanding of the Justiciable concept , this abstract from the Adelaide Law review is a bit heavy, but it makes the legal case for why is is more than difficult for a legislative body to make a law that is non Justiciable.
It is not a proof or binding legal precedent by any means, but short of a complete breakdown of society and executive Government, it is hard to see a scenario where the outcome would be any different.
mick
 
Totally irrelevant anyone can approach the high court for any reason whether they will hear and consider the case is another matter, if its a problem the government of the day can legislate.

The point is that the PM is saying it's just about recognition and that the Voice can make 'representations' and that's it. The AG is also saying it won't delay government decisions. This is tripe. The architects of the wording of the Voice have a clear plan. Change legislation to suite us or we take it to the High Court.
 

Are saying previous high court judges involved with the planning and wording have a clear plan?
 
Are saying previous high court judges involved with the planning and wording have a clear plan?

The Aboriginal activists in the Voice Working Group have. Greg Craven wrote a very good piece on the entire set up and who was driving what a few days ago. Not sure where it was published. Probably The Oz. Will try and find it for you. It's illuminating.
 
@IFocus can you access this?


Nah let my subscription run out some time ago so I'll take your word for it.

Just weigh up Cravens comments with the fact a previous high court chief justice (a conservatives appointed by Howard) and high court judge have now come out clearly unambiguously backed the wording putting their reputations on the line.
 

Craven is voting YES for the moral imperative. But, he sees the wolf in sheep's clothing in what The Voice has morphed into. It's actually worth reading, will cut and paste it to you.

Well, I'll paste it here. It's long so in quotes.

 
And the idea that each distinct culture group is represented by "The Voive" is also beyond silly.
Except that is the purpose of the Voice, so your statement is baseless.
And the Voice will magically close the gap?
it will be like a;ll the other great burecratic ideas, another way to water money.
You overlook the fact that other agencies with an ATSI element will have the Voice as an advisory link on policy, so thee are potential savings.
And all the other myriad of Aboriginal groups cannot do that now?
I worked in ATSIC fo a while, and it is clear yo cannot distinguish what the respective roles of organisations are.
What a stupid statement.
Really?
Are you a first nations person affected by relevant policies?
You or any body else have no idea what changes will or will not be required due to representation of the voice.
A total irrelevance if you are not first nations.
That has zip to do with the Voice.
The Voice is not in play so you are talking about existing legislation.
And finally, neither you or any of the other fervent supporters have explained yet why we need to entire system enshrined in the constitution.
There are literally hundreds of pages of relevant coverage on that topic in the public domain.
I am not hiding under a rock.
The whole voice thing could have already been enacted and be up and running should the government have decided to do so, regardless of the population's opinions.
That option remains.
However, there's more to it as the Uluru statement from the heart asks Australians to walk together to build a better future by establishing a First Nations Voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution, and the establishment of a Makarrata Commission for the purpose of treaty making and truth-telling.
Clearly if non-first nations people don't want this then we maintain that element of racism that keeps our original land owners in the place they were put a few hundred years ago.
 
That option remains.
Well why did they not take it?
Your next statement explains why not.
And there you have it.
Its not really about having a voice to Parliament, its its for the purpose of a treaty and truth telling.
Its what a lot of people have been saying, there are ulterior motives.
Its part of an ruse to get something into the constitution that goes far beyond the voice.

Clearly if non-first nations people don't want this then we maintain that element of racism that keeps our original land owners in the place they were put a few hundred years ago.
Typical, If people don't agree, you bring out the racism card.
If having a special section of the constitution that applies only to a particular race of people is not racism, I don't know what is.
Mick
 
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