The state of the economy at the street level

qldfrog · 19 November 2019

The ones which see 49pc of Australian not paying more taxes than they receive.be it childcare subsidies, being forced to take mandatory private health insurance while having some premium paid back, etc
In a rough idea, 80pc of Australians should pay some taxes,however minimal otherwise we have a nation of entitled who end up with a socialist government and a dead country until starvation.. Chile, Argentina,soon France, Spain

qldfrog · 19 November 2019

Anyway, this is out of scope but government debt should have a roi, and it could be education, health..but not fake boobs or transgender opps..always seing the overall return on society

SirRumpole · 19 November 2019

qldfrog said:
The ones which see 49pc of Australian not paying more taxes than they receive.be it childcare subsidies, being forced to take mandatory private health insurance while having some premium paid back, etc
In a rough idea, 80pc of Australians should pay some taxes,however minimal otherwise we have a nation of entitled who end up with a socialist government and a dead country until starvation.. Chile, Argentina,soon France, Spain

Family Tax Benefits ?

I agree there, if people can't afford their kids that should not be the problem of the general taxpayer.

PZ99 · 19 November 2019

SirRumpole said:
Family Tax Benefits ?

I agree there, if people can't afford their kids that should not be the problem of the general taxpayer.

Agreed. Educating people to be financially responsible is one way to improve the breed.

Giving money to housos to pump out centrelink fodder is not. It's quite dof IMV

Value Collector · 19 November 2019

SirRumpole said:
Would you agree franking credit rebates are welfare ?

Nope, they just ensure taxes are paid at each individuals correct marginal rate, and here is no double taxation.

Value Collector · 19 November 2019

Smurf1976 said:
An issue there is who gets that money?

That is, the possibility that the money is in practice being transferred from someone who would spend it in the real local economy to someone who won't do so.

it’s going to get spent or relent no matter what, offcourse it might not get spent or re-lent in the exact down it was earned in, but that’s just they way the cookie crumbles.

Value Collector · 19 November 2019

PZ99 said:
LOL > I don't think Australia going into horrendous debt was a personal choice.

Having more debt now than ten years ago is very relevant. You and I have to pay for it.
That money doesn't just go in some one else’s pocket - it goes out of the country, which creates a negative effect here.

Using the "zero net debt" theory isn't a magic bullet because it avoids the point of the debate.

none of that is an argument against my position.

I never said debt doesn’t have bad side effects for those who owe money.

offcourse Australia going into debt was a choice, the government spent more than they collected in taxes, they could have spent less or taxed more to avoid debt if they wanted.

but as I said not all debt is bad, the current debt might have been total worth it, who knows.

PZ99 · 19 November 2019

Value Collector said:
none of that is an argument against my position.

I never said debt doesn’t have bad side effects for those who owe money.

offcourse Australia going into debt was a choice, the government spent more than they collected in taxes, they could have spent less or taxed more to avoid debt if they wanted.

but as I said not all debt is bad, the current debt might have been total worth it, who knows.

Apart from the last sentence I'd have to disagree. The Australian economy is not strong enough to have a choice of whether we go into debt or not. We rely heavily (I would argue too heavily) on the world economy to keep us going. When a GFC happens and our revenues are lower the Govt just doesn't have the choice to stop programs to balance the budget unless we're happy to play Hoover and endure triple dip recessions and the like - which would then cut revenues even further.

I remember Kevin Rudd promised us a "temporary" deficit to deal with the GFC. LOL

fiftyeight · 19 November 2019

SirRumpole said:
Family Tax Benefits ?

I agree there, if people can't afford their kids that should not be the problem of the general taxpayer.

Yeah I agree. Just like if some old dude did not save enough for retirement, why are they entitled to generous tax breaks or the pension?

Old dude should of just worked more, hmmm I wonder if thats what the young couple are trying to do when they claim a child care subsidy?

fiftyeight · 19 November 2019

Value Collector said:
it’s going to get spent or relent no matter what, offcourse it might not get spent or re-lent in the exact down it was earned in, but that’s just they way the cookie crumbles.

With life span increasing and wealth accumulating towards the top, an increasing portion of total wealth could stored as 1s and 0s in growing bank accounts rather than circulating through the economy?

Value Collector · 20 November 2019

fiftyeight said:
With life span increasing and wealth accumulating towards the top, an increasing portion of total wealth could stored as 1s and 0s in growing bank accounts rather than circulating through the economy?

you can’t really have it both ways, you either believe debt is growing which is a clear sign money is being re-lent at higher and higher rates and therefore “circulating”, or it is being locked away in a vault in which case debt would not be growing.

so which is it?

Value Collector · 20 November 2019

PZ99 said:
Apart from the last sentence I'd have to disagree. The Australian economy is not strong enough to have a choice of whether we go into debt or not. We rely heavily (I would argue too heavily) on the world economy to keep us going. When a GFC happens and our revenues are lower the Govt just doesn't have the choice to stop programs to balance the budget unless we're happy to play Hoover and endure triple dip recessions and the like - which would then cut revenues even further.

I remember Kevin Rudd promised us a "temporary" deficit to deal with the GFC. LOL

Of course the government has a choice, there is always a choice.

jbocker · 20 November 2019

jbocker said:
Spoke with a mates young tradie son the other day. I was quite surprised at how naive he was about financial investment matters. Told him to look up on the 'net about compound interest. Also pay yourself first. Ask me some questions after that.
I will be back there in a few days. Interested to know if he looked it up.

OK, caught up with the above and NO the lad hadn't looked up "compound Interest". I said a great % of people probably wouldn't, if they were told to do it.
To his credit he did look up cheap land on an island in another state and was excited by the idea. Encouragingly more so, he realised his car debt was an area of concern, and was starting to realise a concept of bad debt.
Not to piss on his plans I said good work, keep researching. hope you stumble compound interest in your research.
Between you and me, he being young can afford the lessons, ie a mistake or two to learn from instead of listening to some advice by some old geeser. Just like most of us did.

PZ99 · 20 November 2019

Value Collector said:
Of course the government has a choice, there is always a choice.

Still don't agree.

When the options are - go into debt - or blow up the economy - there is no choice.

qldfrog · 20 November 2019

Debt vs blowing on the economy?
A bit like i am hungry but weight 180kg, i can go to macdo and forget it and feel good or start a diet.repeat tomorrow..
Economies need to wash and small recession is the way
Our leaders chose for us Hiroshima in the future.then even i will wish i was wrong...

PZ99 · 20 November 2019

Well that's a choice - Macca's vs Medicare. Can't have both

rederob · 20 November 2019

PZ99 said:
Still don't agree.

When the options are - go into debt - or blow up the economy - there is no choice.

Dividing the tax cake can be done in a manner which does not destroy the economy, but somehow reducing taxes is seen as economically responsible even when debt isn't being decreased.
The laughable bit about claims of getting the budget in balance recently have had nothing to to do with good management and everything to do with our resource base generating wealth, despite no value adding happening in Oz.
Debt to GDP remains high:

qldfrog · 20 November 2019

PZ99 said:
Well that's a choice - Macca's vs Medicare. Can't have both

You will have Macca then a heart failure treatment paid by Medicare

qldfrog · 20 November 2019

Another nice economic study by their ABC
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...ers-retiring-immigration/11700508?pfmredir=sm
In the very same article:
We are getting older..true
We were saved..? By immigration..aka growth..true for gdp
But income are regressing due to this too abundant workforce..sadly true
And the recommended solution:
Increase workforce participation..not kidding..the conclusion of the article
Amazingly dumb...
But a few figures are interesting on our economy.

fiftyeight · 20 November 2019

Value Collector said:
you can’t really have it both ways, you either believe debt is growing which is a clear sign money is being re-lent at higher and higher rates and therefore “circulating”, or it is being locked away in a vault in which case debt would not be growing.

so which is it?

I borrow $1 and pay interest only, I then get a higher paying job which allows me to borrow another $1 and repeat. Total debt has grown with no circulation and the value of the debt plus the interest paid stays with a person who has more money they will spend in a lifetime

The state of the economy at the street level

qldfrog

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Value Collector

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fiftyeight

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