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Interesting see how close we are to cost effective solar thermal power plants.
These plants operate 24/7 and would have similar output to current coal fired plants but without the coal or the pollution.

Tantalisingly close': is solar thermal energy ready to replace coal-fired power?

Australian projects are viable already – now the industry needs investors willing to take a risk on large-scale renewable energy

David Sparkes

Friday 13 May 2016 10.09 AEST
Last modified on Friday 13 May 2016 16.53 AEST
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Companies working on large-scale solar thermal projects in Australia say they are tantalisingly close to achieving the dream of building plants big enough to replace coal-fired energy in Australia.

Experts speaking at the Australian Solar Energy Exhibition and Conference in Melbourne last week said the technology had been proven in other countries, and projects in Australia were viable, but the challenge was getting major investors to gamble on something new.

James Fisher, the chief technology officer of Australian solar energy company Vast Solar, said solar thermal energy had been the “poor cousin” to photovoltaic solar panels for some years, but that may finally be changing.

“We’ve got a whole lot of coal-fired power stations that largely are 30-plus years old and many of them are going to retire naturally,” he said.
Port Augusta: embracing solar thermal a vital first step on the path to 100% renewable energy
Stephen Bygrave
Read more

“[Concentrated solar power] CSP is basically a complete coal-fired power replacement.

“We can act as base-load [power], we can run 24/7 if that is what is needed and we have all the benefits that a coal plant offers to the grid.”


.....“Once you’ve got the first plant built, then it comes to a different sort of [investor] and there is huge amounts of money out there looking for infrastructure investments that are giving a return over a 30-year plant life.

“There is no shortage of funds once you prove the technology,” he said.
Click to expand...

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...rmal-energy-ready-to-replace-coal-fired-power
D
 
basilio said:
Interesting see how close we are to cost effective solar thermal power plants.
These plants operate 24/7 and would have similar output to current coal fired plants but without the coal or the pollution.



http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...rmal-energy-ready-to-replace-coal-fired-power
D
Click to expand...

That's the problem basilio, sending silly erroneous statements, to somehow baffle the gullible.
The statement, these plants generate 24/7 is a ridiculous statement, they operate when there is solar generation and have limited storage.
If it is an overcast day, they do sod all.

You may be better served reading reality, rather than making it up as you go along. We all want renewable to work, it is just most of us have a realistic appreciation of the difficulties.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/wor...ge-plant-to-begin-generation-this-month-22860
 
sptrawler said:
That's the problem basilio, sending silly erroneous statements, to somehow baffle the gullible.
The statement, these plants generate 24/7 is a ridiculous statement, they operate when there is solar generation and have limited storage.
If it is an overcast day, they do sod all.

You may be better served reading reality, rather than making it up as you go along. We all want renewable to work, it is just most of us have a realistic appreciation of the difficulties.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/wor...ge-plant-to-begin-generation-this-month-22860
Click to expand...

Not quite true

Molten salt storage
The 150 MW Andasol solar power station is a commercial parabolic trough solar thermal power plant, located in Spain. The Andasol plant uses tanks of molten salt to store solar energy so that it can continue generating electricity even when the sun isn't shining.[56]

A variety of fluids have been tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, but Rockwell International[57] selected molten salt as best.[58] Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmospheric pressure, provides a low-cost medium to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with today's steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. Molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries to transport heat, so industry has experience with it.

The first commercial molten salt mixture was a common form of saltpeter, 60% sodium nitrate and 40% potassium nitrate. Saltpeter melts at 220 °C (430 °F) and is kept liquid at 290 °C (550 °F) in an insulated storage tank. Calcium nitrate can reduce the melting point to 131 °C, permitting more energy to be extracted before the salt freezes. There are now several technical calcium nitrate grades stable at more than 500 °C.

This solar power system can generate power in cloudy weather or at night using the heat in the tank of hot salt. The tanks are insulated, able to store heat for a week. Tanks that power a 100-megawatt turbine for four hours would be about 9 m (30 ft) tall and 24 m (80 ft) in diameter.

The Andasol power plant in Spain is the first commercial solar thermal power plant using molten salt for heat storage and nighttime generation. It came on line March 2009.[59] On July 4, 2011, a company in Spain celebrated an historic moment for the solar industry: Torresol’s 19.9 MW concentrating solar power plant became the first ever to generate uninterrupted electricity for 24 hours straight, using a molten salt heat storage.[60]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_energy
Click to expand...

Main problem with solar thermal I believe is keeping the reflectors clean. Needs a lot of staff and water.
 
Years ago I recall seeing the head of an electronics retail chain discussing a solar powered wristwatch which consisted of a small sundial attached to a wristband. A customer had sent in a letter asking how this watch may be used to tell the time during the night. The customer was sent a pocket flashlight in reply.
 
Your problem SP is you don't actually read the articles. Solar Thermal power stations do store energy in molten salt tanks for night time use. That's why they are seen as potential replacements for base load power stations

They do operate overseas. They may not yet be perfected. But they are not imaginary or ridiculous. Do your research. The article you quoted was excellent and realistic. Did you read it ?
 
basilio said:
Your problem SP is you don't actually read the articles. Solar Thermal power stations do store energy in molten salt tanks for night time use. That's why they are seen as potential replacements for base load power stations

They do operate overseas. They may not yet be perfected. But they are not imaginary or ridiculous. Do your research. The article you quoted was excellent and realistic. Did you read it ?
Click to expand...

I do know that, actually if you went back about three years, I was the one who posted up the Spanish sodium storage facility in the first place.

What I am saying is, as usual, the people with a mission put forward ridiculous statements about the current status of renewable energy.
They make outlandish statements and hold them up as banners, to support the ridiculous statement that fossil fuel is already obsolete.

At this point in time, it is a nonsense and people should stop, harping on about it, in an effort to support their argument.

With regard the article, no I didn't read it, still haven't, too busy with grand kids.

But I do know from experience, we are a long way from achieving base load generation, from solar.
 
I have now read the article, and as I said, the problem is when we have multiple days of poor sunlight.

We as humans at this stage have not got the ability, to control the weather, yet we require electricity 24/7 rain, hail or shine.

It is a bit like the electric car, they are great, but how many kva do they require to charge them?

Maybe Smurph can explain how much electricity, you will draw overnight, charging your 90kw/hr battery.
Also if your house in on a distribution system, that could handle the charge rate.
 
Maybe we are that bored, that we are re hashing old threads.
I just re read the first few pages of "The future of energy generation and storage".

Seems to me we are just recycling.:rolleyes:
 
Tisme said:
Well then let's amp it up and talk inquisitive science rather than boring partisan science:

eg 1

http://www.domain.com.au/news/googl...ink-widget&utm_campaign=c-all-alwayson_nonffx

eg 2

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...rth's-spin-axis-shifted-by-melting-ice-sheets
Click to expand...

Cheers for those links Tisme, both very interesting.

I must say, they are a real breath of fresh air, into an otherwise stale debate.

The google solar application will be brilliant, if proven reliable, it will give terrific guidance on size of appropriate installation.

Also the World moving its axis, may well be a major contributor to the current global warming debate, but the blind believers will debunk it.:D
 
SirRumpole said:
Want to build a moon base? Easy. Just print it


https://theconversation.com/want-to-build-a-moon-base-easy-just-print-it-59070
Click to expand...

Had a chance some weeks ago to look at the full moon with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon...

Then there's our own Sun - the size of a literal pixel compare to the largest sun we've managed to identified being a 20c coin. And I heard that our tech has only managed to "see" some 4% of the universe.
 
luutzu said:
Had a chance some weeks ago to look at the full moon with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon...

Then there's our own Sun - the size of a literal pixel compare to the largest sun we've managed to identified being a 20c coin. And I heard that our tech has only managed to "see" some 4% of the universe.
Click to expand...

Mathematically, apparently intelligent life has probably existed in the universe, scary when you think about some of the people you know.:D

https://www.inverse.com/article/149...odds-intelligent-extraterrestrial-life-exists
 
luutzu said:
Had a chance some weeks ago to look at the full moon with the best telescope (from ToysRus)... and wow! Never seen anything like it. You could actually see the sides of the craters along the circumference (I guess you call it that) of the moon...
Click to expand...

Like this? Snapped from our backyard with a Kodak Z990:

100_6386.jpg

100_6382.jpg

(Not sure if they're uploaded in full size 4000x2256)
 
SirRumpole said:
I never realised honey was high in sugar. I'll probably have to cut down before I get too big to fit through the door.
:)
Click to expand...

Lol, what did you think it was made of?

I wouldn't worry about sugar, your brain won't function without it, as long as your total calories are in balance you will be fine.

You have a bunch of people trying to avoid carbs, and others trying to avoid fats, I reckon you shouldn't avoid either, just don't over eat (or drink) calories.

I find a squirt of honey on my weet bix is a great energy kick in the morning.

luutzu said:
cool.

Now, are Capilano's Capilano-branded honey more, or just as, effective as Allowie's honey at this? :D

Manuka's better you say?

Thought we'd make it a trifecta at picking on VC day.

My folks use and recommend garlic pickled in honey. Tastes barely tolerable, but you'd get used to it long before the high blood sugar would kill you.
Click to expand...

You should definitely by the capilano active 10+ manuka rather than the allowrie (that creates the healthiest profit margins)

As far as allowrie vs regular capilano, probably just pick the one that suits your taste.
 
I have asked that this thread please remain politics free. In accordance with that request I have removed a few posts that were political and intended solely to provoke others.

Let's keep this thread about science, and leave politics to the political threads.
 
Value Collector said:
Lol, what did you think it was made of?

I wouldn't worry about sugar, your brain won't function without it, as long as your total calories are in balance you will be fine.

You have a bunch of people trying to avoid carbs, and others trying to avoid fats, I reckon you shouldn't avoid either, just don't over eat (or drink) calories.

I find a squirt of honey on my weet bix is a great energy kick in the morning.



You should definitely by the capilano active 10+ manuka rather than the allowrie (that creates the healthiest profit margins)

As far as allowrie vs regular capilano, probably just pick the one that suits your taste.
Click to expand...

Here are some details of the difference between cane sugar and honey.

My first drink in the morning for the past 55 years has been apple cider vinegar and honey which is excellent for arthritis and helps to keep the kidneys and urinary track in good order...I have used honey as a replacement of white cane sugar which is poison in my books....They say arthritis is hereditary but we really only inherit our parents bad habits...My parents and siblings ( all now deceased) were all inflicted with arthritis but in my old age I am reality free.....All were high consumers of white cane sugar......I also recommend the use of ginger which is anti-inflammatory and a terrific aid for a healthy prostrate....I make my own ginger tea from raw ginger and have at least 2 cups every day.

Strange as we speak, my dear mother passed away today 31 years ago at the ripe old age of 88

I have also been helping a nurse in Guyana in her research for possible cures of pressure ulcers ( bed sores) in bed ridden old people......I suggested to her use Manuka honey which I believe is only available in Australia and New Zealand....Clean the wound with an antiseptic first and apply the Manuka...Ungvita ointment is another great cure for pressure ulcers.

For better brain function we need at least 2000mg of Omega 3 per day.

http://foodwatch.com.au/blog/carbs-sugars-and-fibres/item/honey-is-it-healthier-than-sugar.html
 

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