The Pope's Encyclical

luutzu · 24 June 2015

Any recognition from the higher ups are welcome. Whether it's the Pope no one in real power really listens to or not, it might raise a few issue when the likes of Abbott claims to be religious, believe that God meant for us to use all the resources of the Earth (that just happen to be own by big corporations, and wind and solar aren't really part of God's plan) with impunity because why else would He put them there.

So this is good... but it's also the Pope's way of saying that... look, mortals, I know God promise Noah he won't flood the Earth again and will never again destroy all life. So when the world floods, when the drought and the locusts come again, it's not God's doing, alright? I'm just saying that disaster of Biblical proportion could happen, and you cannot put it at my Man's feet this time.

---

Value Collector · 24 June 2015

Tink said:
And atheists have killed a lot more, VC.

?

We have been through this, I challenged you to name one atheist who has killed solely because of atheism or in the name of atheism and you failed to name a single one.

All you can mention is "Communists", But they didn't Kill because of atheism, they Killed to prop up their communist government.

So is the science a CON, or is Climate Change real, in your view?

Science is a method, it's not a person. The scientific process is the best method we know off to uncover truth. I accept climate change due to the evidence that's been shown, if new evidence came about and the scientific consensus changed, I would change my view.

Since you put science on a pedestal, you would be behind this, yes

Behind What?

I don't put "science" on a pedestal, I just understand testing things and looking at the evidence is the best way to find out what is true.

If you don't think the scientific method is the best why to get to truth, what is?

SirRumpole · 24 June 2015

Makes me think he knows his book is phony, Because if you truly believed in the bible story, you would be welcoming it.

As Tisme pointed out, the Revelation Apocalypse is widely regarded as allegorical not literal. I suppose you can take it literally if you want you, as do some sects, but anyone with some degree of intelligence can see it simply as a description of Good vs Evil or a desire for the fall of the Roman Empire.

You seem to take this bit as seriously as the people you condemn for taking the same interpretation that you do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

Tisme · 24 June 2015

Value Collector said:
No doubt most of the Bibles authors were on something, It's funny how when a guy from the bronze age smoked or ate something and then wrote a story about how he was a god or he spoke to a god, people think he must have been right. But these days when a neighbourhood kid takes ICE and thinks he is god, no one believes him.

I'm still trying to figure out why there was magic back in the day and I missed out.

Tisme · 24 June 2015

Tink said:
And atheists have killed a lot more, VC.

So is the science a CON, or is Climate Change real, in your view?

Since you put science on a pedestal, you would be behind this, yes?

True, the mongols, stalin, hitler, japs, .... Christ there are so many bad guys and their troop in the past that nailed so many people and the Christians get the blame.

Value Collector · 24 June 2015

Tisme said:
True, the mongols, stalin, hitler, japs, .... .

The Mongols were religious, the Japs were religious, Hitler was raised a catholic is a highly catholic society.

Christ there are so many bad guys and their troop in the past that nailed so many people and the Christians get the blame

I only blame religion for the killings that were inspired by religion, or would have been harder to organise should the offenders not have been religious.

eg. I don't blame religion/Christianity just because a Christian guy shoots a man who slept with his wife (unless he starts quoting the bible passages saying adulters should be put to death.

Just because a person of a certain faith commits a crime, doesn't mean I blame the faith. If however the reason they commit the crime is because they have become convinced it's the right thing to do because of their religion. then yes the religion gets the blame as well.

But yes, I put I certain amount of blame for the holocaust on the anti Jewish inspired by the catholic church in Germany.

And yes, I put a certain amount of blame for the Japanese involvement in WW2 on the fact they believed their Emperor was part god and was infallible.

and yes I certainly blame the Bible and the catholic faith for their various executions and witch burnings etc.

There is a direct link between the bible versus about killing witches and the catholics deciding to go and burn people at the stake.

Atheism has no such texts, you can not get the idea of killing people from simply not believeing in a god.

Atheism is one answer to one question that's it, everything else is something else.

Tisme · 24 June 2015

Value Collector said:
The Mongols were religious, the Japs were religious, Hitler was raised a catholic is a highly catholic society.

I only blame religion for the killings that were inspired by religion, or would have been harder to organise should the offenders not have been religious.

eg. I don't blame religion/Christianity just because a Christian guy shoots a man who slept with his wife (unless he starts quoting the bible passages saying adulters should be put to death.

Just because a person of a certain faith commits a crime, doesn't mean I blame the faith. If however the reason they commit the crime is because they have become convinced it's the right thing to do because of their religion. then yes the religion gets the blame as well.

But yes, I put I certain amount of blame for the holocaust on the anti Jewish inspired by the catholic church in Germany.

And yes, I put a certain amount of blame for the Japanese involvement in WW2 on the fact they believed their Emperor was part god and was infallible.

and yes I certainly blame the Bible and the catholic faith for their various executions and witch burnings etc.

There is a direct link between the bible versus about killing witches and the catholics deciding to go and burn people at the stake.

Atheism has no such texts, you can not get the idea of killing people from simply not believeing in a god.

Atheism is one answer to one question that's it, everything else is something else.

So because there are Catholics in Australia anything Australia does in the killing fields is religiously driven? As far as I'm concerned unless there's a banner vanguarding the columns of troops, declaring a religious war it ain't a religion at the helm, but men doing what men do. Examples of religion in recent war : Ireland, ISIS, .....

Value Collector · 24 June 2015

SirRumpole said:
I suppose you can take it literally if you want you, as do some sects,

it's not just some sects, its a widely held belief through out Christianity that Jesus will return and the world will be destroyed.

SirRumpole · 24 June 2015

Value Collector said:
it's not just some sects, its a widely held belief through out Christianity that Jesus will return and the world will be destroyed.

Revelation was the last book to be accepted into the Christian biblical canon, and even at the present day some Nestorian churches reject it.[19] It was tainted because the heretical sect of the Montanists relied on it[20] and doubts were raised over its Jewishness and authorship.[21] It was not included in the canon until 419.[22]

Doubts resurfaced during the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther called it "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and it was the only New Testament book on which John Calvin did not write a commentary.[23] Even today, it is the only New Testament work not read in the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, though it is included in Catholic and Protestant liturgies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

I'd hardly call that a ringing endorsement

Value Collector · 24 June 2015

Tisme said:
So because there are Catholics in Australia anything Australia does in the killing fields is religiously driven? .....

Nope, I didn't say that at all. Australia is a pretty secular country.

As far as I'm concerned unless there's a banner vanguarding the columns of troops, declaring a religious war it ain't a religion at the helm, but men doing what men do. Examples of religion in recent war : Ireland, ISIS,

Beliefs inform actions, and some of the strongest unquestionable beliefs people hold are their religious beliefs.

Some one raised in a culture where they are taught another group is sub human, can't be trusted etc etc. Can grow up willing to do some nasty things to them. If these cultural traits can largely be traced back to religious teachings, the religion must shoulder some blame.

I also blame religion for wars that are multi generational, where religions holds groups apart and prevents intermingling that would normally end conflicts over time, religion is just another wedge the we don't need.

Tisme · 24 June 2015

Value Collector said:
....religion is just another wedge the we don't need.

as a wedge I agree as a buffer, well it depends on whose side you are on.

Value Collector · 24 June 2015

Tisme said:
as a wedge I agree as a buffer, well it depends on whose side you are on.

A buffer from what?

Tink · 25 June 2015

OK thanks, VC, for your response, so you are right behind Global Warming then.

Belief systems can come in many forms.

As I said,

Every totalitarian regime in the twentieth century was characterised by an obsessive desire to persecute the adherents of Christianity.

Your political correctness is doing just that, controlling the masses, stifling our freedom of speech and creating a totalitarian regime.

Tisme · 25 June 2015

Value Collector said:
A buffer from what?

The opposing religious team that invariably surfaces because of the need for people to have a spiritual safehouse to shelter their inner concerns, guilt, confusion, fears, etc. If you can't trust a skyfairy with confidential thoughts, who can you trust?

Tisme · 25 June 2015

Tink said:
OK thanks, VC, for your response, so you are right behind Global Warming then.

Belief systems can come in many forms.

As I said,

Every totalitarian regime in the twentieth century was characterised by an obsessive desire to persecute the adherents of Christianity.

Your political correctness is doing just that, controlling the masses, stifling our freedom of speech and creating a totalitarian regime.

Of course we don't consider how the Germans citizens were themselves persecuted and hounded into obeying their Nazi masters, many of those citizens Christians and many who lost their lives.

There is this almost glib argument by the antichrists that Mao was raised Buddhist, Hitler was exposed to Catholicism, Stalin to Orthodox Christianity so somehow they were religious adherents and therefore heads of religious genocides. That's like saying Joe down the street was sent off to Sunday school and therefore he's whatever. If that was the yardstick we wouldn't have any atheists or agnostics to speak of in the country and we wouldn't have dwindling church numbers... perhaps there is some kind of formal renunciation process that is required to lose the tribal colours?

Knobby22 · 25 June 2015

Talk about thread drift.

Value Collector · 25 June 2015

though it is included in Catholic and Protestant liturgies

I hate to ask, but Is the pope catholic?

SirRumpole said:
I'd hardly call that a ringing endorsement

Value Collector · 25 June 2015

Tink said:
OK thanks, VC, for your response, so you are right behind Global Warming then.

.

I have no idea what you mean when you say I am "right behind global warming"

I said I accept the scientific consensus that it is happening, I am not "right behind it" like a fan cheering a football team, if that's what you mean

Belief systems can come in many forms.

Yes they do, and I think the more true beliefs you have and the less false ones the better off you are, on both a personal and a societal level.

You should care whether your beliefs are true, and be willing to drop beliefs you realise are not based on evidence.

As I said,

Every totalitarian regime in the twentieth century was characterised by an obsessive desire to persecute the adherents of Christianity.

That's not the answer to the question I asked.

I challenged you to name one atheist who has killed solely because of atheism or in the name of atheism and you failed to name a single one.

The fact that Christians have been persecuted is not evidence that people are killing because of atheism, I am against belief systems based on false premises in all their forms, whether that be the religions, leader worship, communism etc,

Atheism is not a belief system, its one opinion on one topic eg "Do you believe a god exists" if the answer is no, your an atheist. No one has ever killed for the sole reason that they don't believe in a god, they would need other beliefs and opinions to do that.

However, people have killed for the sole reason of their religious convictions.

Value Collector · 25 June 2015

Tisme said:
The opposing religious team that invariably surfaces because of the need for people to have a spiritual safehouse to shelter their inner concerns, guilt, confusion, fears, etc. If you can't trust a skyfairy with confidential thoughts, who can you trust?

You don't need religion to buffer you, you just need an understanding of reality, and a separation of church and state.

Guilt is the biggest product that the religions spread, without religion you have less silly guilt.

Confusion can be cured by Knowing the facts, and understanding reality, Religion relies on people being confused.

Fear is greatest among the superstitious and religious, you even hear them say "We are god fearing men", take away all the myths and monsters and their is less to be scared of.

SirRumpole · 25 June 2015

I challenged you to name one atheist who has killed solely because of atheism or in the name of atheism and you failed to name a single one.

You can nitpick all you like but the fact is that religions have been persecuted by atheist regimes; eg the Chinese Communists. Whether you choose to constrain the debate to the "for the sole reason of atheism" argument is irrelevant. Just as very few religious people these days would not approve of some acts that their religions have done in the past, so all atheists should condemn the persecution of religions, not give offhand condonement.

The Pope's Encyclical

luutzu

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

SirRumpole

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

SirRumpole

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Tink

Tisme

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Tisme

Apathetic at Best

Knobby22

Mmmmmm 2nd breakfast

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.

SirRumpole

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