Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

The official "ASX is tanking!" panic thread

Seems like everyone is a bear nowadays and expecting the US economy to TANK.

I've looked at the US economic data and most analysts are saying it's looking at a slower rate of growth but with only 40% chance to lead to recession.

Putting aside the fact that the consensus of economists has never predicted a recession in history, quoting the consensus of economists does not qualify as looking at US economic data. Have you looked at the ISM's, regional PMI's, credit spreads YoY GDP growth, YoY Non-farm payroll growth along with the stock market? Taken together all these indicators represent a syndrome of conditions that have always and only been present either immediately prior to or during recessions. This is not an opinion, it is a fact of the data. Of course this time could be different, but I think most would agree it is not advisable not to build an investment strategy around that outcome.



Nice little report to read:
http://www.tradingfloor.com/blogs/e...-report-but-theres-a-silver-lining-1496247708


Job data are not pointing towards recession


The flat reading for the August change in NFPs may have caught some bulls off guard, but when we dig deeper the report it was actually better than the headline flat reading suggests.

The ADP Employment Change of 91K may have given hopes of a better number, but methodological differences explain much of variation since the Verizon (-45K) strike does not feature in the ADP data but does in the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Adding the strike back, we land at +45K, not bad for a month mired by strikes, debt discussions and recessions fears. Though in no way does this mean that this is a good number by any means.

The unemployment rate held at 9.1% despite a gain in labour participation to 64% from 63.9%. This was due to a large influx of employees in the Household Surveys – on which the Unemployment Rate is based – of +331K. However, other measures of labour market health such as weekly hours and average hourly earnings deteriorated and thus this report cannot be labelled as anything but weak.

Overall, we deem this report to be positive given the news surrounding the report, but weak on an absolute basis. It is certainly not impressive by any standards, but also not the thing of recessions. The Verizon strike should add back in the September report (note how Household Employment grew despite the strike since it does not count such) and we remain faithful to our “not-recession, but bumbling-along scenario”.

The biggest problem with this report is that the author doesn't know what he's talking about. Firstly, employment data is not predictive of recessions, it is a lagging indicator, if you wait for employment to give you a recession signal, you are already in recession and thus too late.

At the official start of the recession in December 2007, the 3 month moving average of payroll growth was 101k per month. We are now at 35k per month, even if you add back the Verizon workers you are at 50k per month, well below the levels that kicked off the last recession. That doesn't mean that we are already in recession but that the authors of the above report are ignorant of the historical data.

In December 2007, payroll growth was 84k, employing the logic of the authors above, they would have concluded that the jobs data was not pointing to recession when in fact the economy was already in recession.
 
But, to say that the USA is doomed is crazy, there will still be consumption happening, and good and services will be moving, and profits will be made by business.

The USA is far from doomed, I believe the USA will be the greatest most prosperous country in the next 40 years.

Investing in the USA today will definitely pay off in the future.

However at the moment it's unsustainable. If everything keeps going the way it is going now, it will be doomed and won't become the country it can be. Luckily, the coming economic crash over the next 12-18 months will steer the USA into a more sustainable prosperous future.

So I'm not "negative".. I'm quite positive, I just don't think optimism is a trait that will prevent me losing money in the stock market.
 
The USA is not doomed, their average standard of living is doomed. Get rid of 80% of Government, military, abolish the fed & they could be great again !
 
If you think about it a bit one more serious strike on the US.
Or the rescue of another country ( I noticed they let the insurgence get rid of gaddafi)
And you will see the USA in super deep do do.

Don't think I'm the only nutter who knows this!
 
Putting aside the fact that the consensus of economists has never predicted a recession in history, quoting the consensus of economists does not qualify as looking at US economic data. Have you looked at the ISM's, regional PMI's, credit spreads YoY GDP growth, YoY Non-farm payroll growth along with the stock market? Taken together all these indicators represent a syndrome of conditions that have always and only been present either immediately prior to or during recessions. This is not an opinion, it is a fact of the data. Of course this time could be different, but I think most would agree it is not advisable not to build an investment strategy around that outcome.





The biggest problem with this report is that the author doesn't know what he's talking about. Firstly, employment data is not predictive of recessions, it is a lagging indicator, if you wait for employment to give you a recession signal, you are already in recession and thus too late.

At the official start of the recession in December 2007, the 3 month moving average of payroll growth was 101k per month. We are now at 35k per month, even if you add back the Verizon workers you are at 50k per month, well below the levels that kicked off the last recession. That doesn't mean that we are already in recession but that the authors of the above report are ignorant of the historical data.

In December 2007, payroll growth was 84k, employing the logic of the authors above, they would have concluded that the jobs data was not pointing to recession when in fact the economy was already in recession.

I've looked at 3 things. ISM, unemployment and GDP growth.

ISM is above 50, indicating that the economy is only slightly expanding.

GDP growth was 0.4% in the first quarter, and 1% in the second. Unemployment remained stagnant.

Isn't a recession characterised by TWO quarters of negative growth?

I think all this talk about recession is actually going to fuel enough fears to drive the U.S. into a recession. That's why we have the politicians! They need to do something and do something NOW (which I guess is what everyone is waiting for).

Show us the plans. Boost some confidence. Maybe the US economy is going to get out of this mess.

The only thing that really worries me is that market sentiment is at an all time LOW, so with inaction, yes, I do think the US economy may have a higher risk of entering a recession.
 
I just don't think optimism is a trait that will prevent me losing money in the stock market.

Ofcourse not, only making sound investments that are backed by thorough analysis, margin of safty and a base of actual stock market experiance.

I suppose it also hinges on what you call "losing" money,

If you class losing money as buying a stock and having it go lower than you purchase price in the next couple of days well then there is a good chance of that.
 
The only thing that really worries me is that market sentiment is at an all time LOW, so with inaction, yes, I do think the US economy may have a higher risk of entering a recession.

Would a recession cause share prices to sink? Probably yes,

But would a recession have a terrible longterm effect on the earning power of good companies? Probably not,

As far as I can see a recession is nothing to fear, We will have recessions in the future, lots of them, every country will, even china. We have had many recessions in the past, Even periods that people look back on as being very prosperous were dotted with recessions along the way.

Even if you started dollar cost averaging into the market during the great depression you would have made money.
 
Would a recession cause share prices to sink? Probably yes,

But would a recession have a terrible longterm effect on the earning power of good companies? Probably not,

As far as I can see a recession is nothing to fear, We will have recessions in the future, lots of them, every country will, even china. We have had many recessions in the past, Even periods that people look back on as being very prosperous were dotted with recessions along the way.

Even if you started dollar cost averaging into the market during the great depression you would have made money.

One problem............this time is different :)

Seriously normally recessions come from the business cycle, this one coming for the USA and possibly here is far more insidiousness in that its forming as a result of dept, more importantly sovereign dept is in the mix.

Until the dept problems are addressed (there currently is no political will in USA to do this as it means pain) then the markets will continue to measure stock pricing world wide by risk.

BTW Europe is the real elephant in the room, the US is really just a side show.
 
I've looked at 3 things. ISM, unemployment and GDP growth.

ISM is above 50, indicating that the economy is only slightly expanding.

GDP growth was 0.4% in the first quarter, and 1% in the second. Unemployment remained stagnant.

Isn't a recession characterised by TWO quarters of negative growth?

You are obviously new to this stuff but that's OK, you have to learn somehow. No, recessions are not characterised by two consecutive quarters of negative growth. The NBER is the official arbiter of US recessions, from their website:

During a recession, a significant decline in economic activity spreads across the economy and can last from a few months to more than a year.....

The Committee does not have a fixed definition of economic activity. It examines and compares the behavior of various measures of broad activity: real GDP measured on the product and income sides, economy-wide employment, and real income. The Committee also may consider indicators that do not cover the entire economy, such as real sales and the Federal Reserve's index of industrial production (IP)....

The ISM PMI registered 51.1 in January 2008, the second month of the recession, the ISM Non Manufacturing survey of business activity was 54.3 in December 2007 the first month of recession. No single economic indicator is going to signal a recession but a number of economic indicators at particular levels taken together have historically always and only been observed immediately prior to or during recessions. See here for the list.

I think all this talk about recession is actually going to fuel enough fears to drive the U.S. into a recession. That's why we have the politicians! They need to do something and do something NOW (which I guess is what everyone is waiting for).

Show us the plans. Boost some confidence. Maybe the US economy is going to get out of this mess.

Anyone who has been watching the last few years knows that politicians don't have the answers, if anything, we could do with less action from politicians.

The only thing that really worries me is that market sentiment is at an all time LOW, so with inaction, yes, I do think the US economy may have a higher risk of entering a recession.

What evidence do you have to suggest sentiment is at an all time low? The chart below is the AAII investor sentiment survey, the latest reading for percentage of bullish members is dead in line with the long term average.

AAII INv Sent Sep012011.GIF

Interesting blog post from Barry Ritholtz today. What does that say about sentiment among so-called professionals on Wall Street?

Wall Street Strategists Are (Surprise!) Bullish
 
One problem............this time is different :)

Seriously normally recessions come from the business cycle, this one coming for the USA and possibly here is far more insidiousness in that its forming as a result of dept, more importantly sovereign dept is in the mix.

Until the dept problems are addressed (there currently is no political will in USA to do this as it means pain) then the markets will continue to measure stock pricing world wide by risk.

BTW Europe is the real elephant in the room, the US is really just a side show.

Yes but which department are you talking about? :)
 
Interesting position for those that like charts.

Just prior to the drop last month the DJIA put in a Double top. Rather emphatic and this was confirmed as the index dropped away. At the same time the ASX200 was already below its 150 period EMA and looking relatively weaker. The ASX200 dropped away accordingly.

Fast forward to the current action .... The DJIA is forming into a flag ... 11,100 needs to hold Monday, Tuesday next week ... if it does then the market might be stabilising. This flag however might be a pause before another sharp decrease in coming weeks. Lets see how that goes.

Contrast with ASX200. We are actually looking stronger that the DJIA now ... Could even form into an ascending triangle ... if this is the case I'd expect 4150 to hold this week.

In any event these patterns need to resolve. When they break ... be ready to take positions that reconcile ... I'm of the opinion that it should be higher however the DJIA is still happy to sell off quick smart.
 

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400K figure relates to how many people signed to claim unemployment, if after 4 weeks their have been 1.6M make the claim it does not mean their are 1.6M extra people that are unemployed.

That's because there wasn't zero jobs created this month, there was probably somewhere between 1 - 2 million jobs created, only problem is that the same number was lost, the number you see reported is just the net of the two.

Thanks. I suppose at some point the initial jobless claims will fall... although that point might be when there are no more jobs to be lost...

Interesting position for those that like charts.

Contrast with ASX200. We are actually looking stronger that the DJIA now ... Could even form into an ascending triangle ... if this is the case I'd expect 4150 to hold this week.

The ASX200 is lagging 24 hours compared to the DJIA - we haven't had time to follow DJIA's Friday fall. Futures indicating ~4170 but we will go below that. A host of large companies going ex-div next week isn't going to help. BHP alone is probably worth quite a few points.
 
News came out in fri noon aus time about banks being sued for $50bil.
So I'd guess a bit of it is expected

SkyQ, do you know the time stamp of the law suit being filed? It's been brewing for a few days so it might be priced in to some extent, but I don't know if people knew the exact magnitute of it. Although you have to say that BofA was given plenty of notices to get the money from Uncle Warren and selling their China Construction Bank stake.

BTW... US is now only $40B or so from the newly raised debt ceiling. Hmmm...

https://www.fms.treas.gov/fmsweb/viewDTSFiles?dir=w&fname=11090100.pd
 
down 2.2% and only 1 post today. Whats going on guys!

Considering that it is 'panic' thread, maybe those left on here don't panic, they see what is coming and are prepared.

It seems to be only the "bargain at these prices" brigade that panic :D
 
I don't believe that for a second tech/a, I reckon you would have a dozen or so on a short list that you will dig out when the XAO hits 3700 :D

Might be looking at a bit lower.
3100 ish.
Not rushing to the long trading floor.

But in the meantime enjoying the volatility in the Futs.
Stops to B/E and getting my fair share of ticks is fine for
me while Rome Burns.
 
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