The new China

[Gringotts Bank]

I think I prefer the old China.

The new china at a glance:

- corruption deeply entrenched in every aspect of society, especially big business and the ruling reds.

- female infanticide (the chinese all want boys to carry on the family name so a lot of the baby girls get dumped in the toilet or rice field).

- The baby trade is alive and well. Anything is available at a price.

- 50 deaths on average per week, yes per week, in unsafe mines

- horrific levels of pollution, and a virtual 'no-show' at the recent Copenhagen Climate Talks. The air in beijing is thick yellow disgusting filth.

- dissidents get bashed, jailed or killed for speaking out against the corrupt government. There's no judicial process, it's just "send around the officials". Someone today was sent to a hard labour camp for tweeting a totally innocent message that had an anti-government tone to it. Can't begin to imagine what torture Stern Hu is being subject to. These things are a regular occurrence.

- Horrific cruelty to animals in chinese zoos. Before the 2008 olympics, stray dogs were collected and hauled into huge pick up trucks still alive, dumped ontop of each other scrambling for air.

- the worlds biggest copying machine. Do they have anything original to offer the World? Foreign brands simply have to concede they can't win.

- a government hell-bent on money, status and power for its own end. It condones exploitation of the poor. How else can such massive wealth come to a country other than through exploitation of the underclass? Sweat shops abound. The poor are kept ignorant so that they are unable to learn how badly mis-treated they are. Stick your neck out and you may just disappear. Type the word "google" in your browser and big brother will be watching, you can bet on that.

- Businessmen traveling to china are made aware that anything they leave in a hotel room, such as a laptop, will likely have its contents copied. They are told never to leave personal stuff unattended.



So there you have it. What a wonderful country it used to be. Not any more. There's only so long a manipulative and controlling government can stay in power through sheer brutality and force. If it falls, it will be the biggest most bloody civil war in the planet's history. The only way it can be averted is if democracy is gradually implemented, safe work practices enforced and corruption properly dealt with.

 

[nomore4s]

How's this any different to how it used to be?

 

[nukz]

- a government hell-bent on money, status and power for its own end. It condones exploitation of the poor. How else can such massive wealth come to a country other than through exploitation of the underclass? Sweat shops abound. The poor are kept ignorant so that they are unable to learn how badly mis-treated they are. Stick your neck out and you may just disappear. Type the word "google" in your browser and big brother will be watching, you can bet on that.

I would beg to differ on this point for one tell me what country is not hell bent on money(888 always )

I actully think its more the multi-national corporations that are exploiting workers eg. apple/dell at foxconn.

Allot of the fear is created by western country's i've traveled to Shanghai & Hangzhou many times for business and i've found them to be much happier than people in the US thats for damn sure and its obvious.

Sure they all want to have a better life but they at the same time understand they are a developing nation and things do not always work smoothly.

There are allot of things we see in the media here but most of those things are the worst you will see, but the media does not show the other side.

 

[matty77]

How's this any different to how it used to be?

Only difference to before is now we all know about what happens, before we didnt!

The old China was probably worse than it is now,

 

[nukz]

- female infanticide (the chinese all want boys to carry on the family name so a lot of the baby girls get dumped in the toilet or rice field).

- The baby trade is alive and well. Anything is available at a price.

- 50 deaths on average per week, yes per week, in unsafe mines

The family's having male children is actually a almost cultural thing, the reason for this is in Australia when people retire they have super/pension but in China that does not exist and ushally the children look after the parents. That being said the ones who offered the best care for family where males because they would be the ones earning money.

This is actully changing now and you will find there are more female billionaires in China than any other place in the world, so does that suggest women have been suppresed in western country's.

I should also note my partner is Chinese(I'm not Chinese or even from asian decent) just so people don't jump to conclusions saying im just a communist Chinese patriot or something lol.

 

[drsmith]

What about China's one child policy ?

 

[Wysiwyg]

What about China's one child policy ?

I think they understand the meaning of exponential population growth. Particularly the sustainability of large numbers of human beings within the confines of their country.

 

[drsmith]

I was meaning in reference to female infanticide.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

drsmith, it could be argued that the one child policy makes the temptation to kill female offspring even worse.

By the way, most of the claims I make in my original post can be verified with reputable online sources, apart from the laptop story which I heard first hand.

My main reason for posting is to make a case that those at the top end in china (business owners and state officials) are becoming massively wealthy through exploitation and manipulation. Not only is it unfair, but it's also unsustainable.

 

[matty77]

There is also a very large emerging middle class in China, which we have not seen before, I would argue that on average people are now better off than every before in China.

Your whole argument is that people are worse off, sorry I just cant see it.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I agree the new middle class have better lives now, just that it's come at a human and environmental cost which is not generally seen or talked about.

 

[skc]

How's this any different to how it used to be?

I am interested in this question as well. When you say old China which period are you referring to?

1980s -Before the open economic policies?
1960-70s - During Cultural revolution?
1940-50s - Japanese invasion?
1920-40s - Mostly civil war and hyper inflation?
<1910 - The Qing dynasty?

Or another time period?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Just loosely referring to pre-boom china. My Father did business there in the 70's and 80's and describes a very different scene. The exploitation for profit hadn't come into full swing at that stage.

Allowing local chinese workers to be used by wealthy foreign companies such as sports shoes and clothing manufacturers marked the start of it. Then the locals themselves thought it was a good idea and followed suit.

 

[Happy]

...
Allot of the fear is created by western country's i've traveled to Shanghai & Hangzhou many times for business and i've found them to be much happier than people in the US thats for damn sure and its obvious.

Sure they all want to have a better life but they at the same time understand they are a developing nation and things do not always work smoothly.

...

At the moment people are happy because they can get: fridge, TV, possibly at some stage swap push bike for motorbike later for car.

Once they get all that, chances are they will start to think about democracy.

Hope they do not pollute whole World and in a meantime CO2 tax is not going to accelerate poverty in Australia.

 

[alphaman]

My main reason for posting is to make a case that those at the top end in china (business owners and state officials) are becoming massively wealthy through exploitation and manipulation. Not only is it unfair, but it's also unsustainable.

Yeah but that happens in every country, now and before, and no doubt will sustain into the future.

 

[skc]

Just loosely referring to pre-boom china. My Father did business there in the 70's and 80's and describes a very different scene. The exploitation for profit hadn't come into full swing at that stage.

Apart from the pollution and the copy right infringement issues, everything you mentioned in the original post are probably worse off in the 70s and 80s.

The one child policy was put i place in late 70s. Political oppressions were worse (remember the tanks on Tian An Man Square). Quite a few high profile officials were given the death penalty in recent years for corruption which is a lot more than you can say compared with 20 years ago. Animal cruelty - they used to make the pandas (their national treasure no less) do silly tricks to entertain the zoo visitors. At least they have stopped that these days.

There are lots of problems in the new China, but the old China wasn't hunky dory either.

The exploitation of the uneducated and lower class is getting worse, and it will be some time before any real improvement on the pollution front (if world hasn't ended before that). Although I think China with its dictatorship regime actually has a better chance of solving some of those problems (like pollution and wealth inequality) than the West... but I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Year 2010 - no excuse for such a complete and utter disregard for its lower classes (and environment and animals).

From today's news: "In China an average of 187 people died in work-related accidents each day in the first half of this year, the government has said".

Nearly 200 per day dead. And that's only the figure the dictatorship wants you to know about. Given it's history of brutality and manipulation, if they were even half serious about work place safety, they could have it implemented overnight. Unfortunately they have other goals of self-aggrandisement.

Today alone - 4 dead 37 injured in factory explosion and 28 trapped in flooded mine. The rest don't get reported I assume. Just watch the news, this is a daily occurence.

This called "growth through exploitation and corruption". Easy when there's no laws, isn't it? The man with the gun yields all the power. It's like schoolyard bully law.

I'm watching for cracks to appear. All brutal dictatorships of history have come to disastrous ends. The more outragoeus the control tactics, the more reliable the sell signal. Sending a woman to 1 years hard labour camp for a Tweet was getting pretty close.

 

[merlinnn]

I have been to China fairly regularly since 2004 and have noticed some major changes. The wealth discrepancy was huge when I first travelled there, you would see the beggars on the streets of Shanghai, whilst a new Mercedes would almost run them over to get a car park!

The family I started doing business with lived in a tiny flat around 1 hours drive from the centre of Shanghai, 5 years later they had a new car, a house in Beijing, 1 in Hangzhou and a apartment in Shanghai.

The wealth discrepancy is still there, but middle class China has put a major dent in it. More people have cars, investments, and spare cash as opposed to just living.

The strange thing is that at the moment China is very much Pepsi and Prada on the outside, but underneath it all Communism still rules supreme. According to friends there the amount of tax you pay varies, not on income you earn, but on how well you know the tax man and well you keep him informed of your business ventures. Knowing someone in the party is also essential to business success!

I truly like China, it's culture and have made some great friends over there, but you must always be aware that they will (the government and business associates) will play by their rules and generally come out on top.

 

[matty77]

Year 2010 - no excuse for such a complete and utter disregard for its lower classes (and environment and animals).

From today's news: "In China an average of 187 people died in work-related accidents each day in the first half of this year, the government has said".

Nearly 200 per day dead. And that's only the figure the dictatorship wants you to know about. Given it's history of brutality and manipulation, if they were even half serious about work place safety, they could have it implemented overnight. Unfortunately they have other goals of self-aggrandisement.

Today alone - 4 dead 37 injured in factory explosion and 28 trapped in flooded mine. The rest don't get reported I assume. Just watch the news, this is a daily occurence.

This called "growth through exploitation and corruption". Easy when there's no laws, isn't it? The man with the gun yields all the power. It's like schoolyard bully law.

I'm watching for cracks to appear. All brutal dictatorships of history have come to disastrous ends. The more outragoeus the control tactics, the more reliable the sell signal. Sending a woman to 1 years hard labour camp for a Tweet was getting pretty close.

How quickly would you like China to change? They cant change and fix everything up over night, they have thousands of years of history and it will take some time to improve things. But things ARE improving anyway.

Take a look at India for a place that has poor people being mistreated. I would post up a link but.. yeah its just not nice.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

What courage this man shows, and congratulations to him on earning the Nobel Peace Prize.

from news.com...

A JAILED Chinese dissident has won the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize for championing reform and human rights in a move that angered Beijing.

Writer and academic Liu Xiaobo, 54, who is serving 11 years in a Chinese prison for subversion, was honoured "for his long and non-violent struggle for fundamental human rights in China", Norwegian Nobel Committee president Thorbjoern Jagland said.

China described the decision to award Liu the prize as blasphemous and gave warning that relations with Norway would suffer.

"Liu Xiaobo is a criminal who has been sentenced by Chinese judicial departments for violating Chinese law," the foreign ministry said in a statement.

Awarding the peace prize to Liu "runs completely counter to the principle of the prize and is also a blasphemy to the peace prize".

Liu's jailing in December last year attracted international condemnation. He is probably unaware he has won the prize.

Norway was the first nation to congratulate Liu while Amnesty International called him a "worthy winner" and urged China to release all prisoners of conscience.

Speaking in China Liu Xiaobo's wife Liu Xia, who has been under constant police surveillance since her husband's arrest, said she was "so excited" by the Nobel award.

Mr Jagland insisted that the Nobel Committee has the right to question the human rights record of one of the world's great powers.

"The Norwegian Nobel Committee has long believed that there is a close connection between human rights and peace," he said.

"China is in breach of several international agreements to which it is a signatory, as well as of its own provisions concerning political rights," said Mr Jagland, adding that "we have a responsibility to speak when others are unable to speak."

Liu was a key figure in the pro-democracy student movement in China in 1989, which was brutally crushed by Chinese authorities and culminated in the Tiananmen Square crackdown.

In recent years Chinese dissidents have routinely been named as top candidates for the prestigious prize but have not won.

In 1989, China was incensed that the Nobel Committee chose the Tibetian spiritual leader Dalai Lama for the Peace Prize.

Oslo's fears of a backlash from China come as Norway and China are in negotiations to forge a bilateral trade agreement, a deal which the Norwegian government hopes to sign as soon as possible.