Where do you get long chain Omega 3
with a vegan diet ?
Where does the Pritikin/Ornish diet provide them ?
If you say from a capsule
Well you are not starting with a wholesome natural human diet
But a deficient one..
Taurine
Vitamin A ( not same as beta carotene )
Zinc
B 12
etc
All these things esp long chain omega 3
should be provided by diet
ALA is not same
and liver has limited ability to convert
important eg macular degeneration epidemic
melanoma epidemic
etc
motorway
thanks for the advice guys, all good if you are obsessive , but most of us are not.
What doctors need to realise is that they are a service industry, just like a coffee shop, trades assistant or a lawn mowing business.
The people who determine our wealth are farmers, miners and inustrialists.
Actors, entaertainment provide tittilation and occasionally a big win like Hoges.
Doctors preach at people and are in the hold of either the Guvment or bigPharma to dope people out to make a profit, pure and simple, or to deny them essential services by building a huge bureaucracy in the case of Guvment.
All this wheat crap, is just that, crap.
I eat usually good food , pasta, steak, eyetie, chinese and salami.
I could not give a stuff whether I die today or in forty years time.
The problem is with all these obsessive old farts who want to live forever.
We are keeping all these people alive and will pay for it in 20 years time with huge asylums full of demented old yorks with current gym and health food shop memberships.
gg
Study from way back in 2003 ?
is hardly preliminary
More like old hat.
motorway
I early await the first longitudinal epidemiological paper of Paleo dieters...
At this point, ovo lacto vegetarian SDAs have a definitive physiological and functional health advantage.
So I take it from your response
that Dean Ornish claims long chain Omega 3 is unnecessary
in the diet
That was the question I asked
If so that is good to know
My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
Maybe you are right that longitundinal studies of paleo diet will reveal some health advantage......
At this point, Dean Ornish's research upholds many of the papers I've read through the years. Though I am not a dietitian or gastroenterologist, and do not avidly keep up with all the issues.
If you want to know the detail of his views on PUFAs, they are probably out there in google land or on medline.
What I'd recommend though if you want to search medline, is first read literature review articles that orient you on an issue, and help clarify who the respected peers are.
Now I am off to bed as I have to be up for a nice 70k cycle early in the morning.....before the truckies get out after a night on the fatty food and booze....
My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
Maybe you are right that longitundinal studies of paleo diet will reveal some health advantage......
At this point, Dean Ornish's research upholds many of the papers I've read through the years. Though I am not a dietitian or gastroenterologist, and do not avidly keep up with all the issues.
If you want to know the detail of his views on PUFAs, they are probably out there in google land or on medline.
What I'd recommend though if you want to search medline, is first read literature review articles that orient you on an issue, and help clarify who the respected peers are.
Now I am off to bed as I have to be up for a nice 70k cycle early in the morning.....before the truckies get out after a night on the fatty food and booze....
My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
Maybe you are right that longitundinal studies of paleo diet will reveal some health advantage......
At this point, Dean Ornish's research upholds many of the papers I've read through the years. Though I am not a dietitian or gastroenterologist, and do not avidly keep up with all the issues.
If you want to know the detail of his views on PUFAs, they are probably out there in google land or on medline.
What I'd recommend though if you want to search medline, is first read literature review articles that orient you on an issue, and help clarify who the respected peers are.
Now I am off to bed as I have to be up for a nice 70k cycle early in the morning.....before the truckies get out after a night on the fatty food and booze....
Dr. Ornish: We recommend a total daily dose of 1000 mg of EPA and DHA combined. Fish oil supplements vary in their eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) content. Aim for a dosage that includes approximately 600 mg EPA and 400 mg DHA per day. This dosage is usually found in three grams of fish oil in capsule form per day.
What is wrong with a diet that you need to supplement
To this extent ?
maybe LOTS ?
DYOR
DHA is so important for infants
it only gets into breast milk
If it is in the Mothers Diet
same way EPA & DHA gets into and makes up cellular membranes in your body
( in the skin , brain . macular etc etc )
for discussion
motorway
Considering these communities have survived for thousands of years, you have to assume DHA has not been an issue for lactating mothers or anyone else.
Timeframe for cereal grain domestication. There are 8 major cereal grains which are consumed by modern man (wheat, rye, barley, oats, corn, rice, sorghum, and millet) [Harlan 1992]. Each of these grains were derived from wild precursors whose original ranges were quite localized [Harlan 1992]. Wheat and barley were domesticated only ~10,000 years ago in the Near East; rice was domesticated approximately 7,000 years ago in China, India, and southeast Asia; corn was domesticated 7,000 years ago in Central and South America; millets were domesticated in Africa 5,000-6,000 years ago; sorghum was domesticated in East Africa 5,000-6,000 years ago; rye was domesticated ~5,000 years ago in southwest Asia; and oats were domesticated ~3,000 years ago in Europe.
Consequently, the present-day edible grass seeds simply would have been unavailable to most of mankind until after their domestication because of their limited geographic distribution. Also, the wild version of these grains were much smaller than the domesticated versions and extremely difficult to harvest [Zohary 1969].
How recent in the human evolutionary experience is grain consumption in terms of our total dietary experience? The first member of the human genus, Homo, was Homo habilis who has now been dated to ~2.33 million years ago (MYA) [Kimbel et al. 1996]. Homo erectus, who had post-cranial (the rest of the body below the skull) body proportions similar to modern humans, appeared in Africa by about 1.7 MYA and is thought to have left Africa and migrated to Asia by 1 MYA or perhaps even earlier [Larick and Ciochon 1996]. Archaic Homo sapiens (called by some, Homo heidelbergensis) has been dated to 600,000 years ago in Africa and to about 400,000 years ago in Europe or perhaps earlier [De Castro et al. 1997].
Anatomically modern Homo sapiens appear in the fossil record in Africa and the Mideast by about 90,000-110,000 years ago and behaviorally modern H. sapiens are known in the fossil record by ~50,000 years ago in Australia and by about ~40,000 yrs ago in Europe.
The so-called "Agricultural Revolution" (primarily the domestication of animals, cereal grains, and legumes) occurred first in the Near East about 10,000 years ago and spread to northern Europe by about 5,000 years ago [Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993]. The industrial revolution occurred roughly 200 years ago, and the technological revolution which brought us packaged, processed foods is primarily a development that has occurred in the past 100 years and has seen enormous growth in the last 50 years.
To gauge how little geologic or evolutionary time humans have been exposed to foods wrought by the agricultural revolution, let's do a little paper experiment. Take a stack of computer paper (the kind in which each page is connected to one another) and count out 212 eleven-inch (28-cm) pages. Then unravel the stack of paper and lay it out end to end--it will form a continuous 194-foot (59-meter) strip. Now, let's assume that 1 inch (2.54 cm) equals 1,000 years in our 194-foot strip of computer paper; thus, the first part of the first page represents the emergence of our genus 2.33 MYA and the last part of the last page represents the present day.
Now, take a slow walk down all 194 feet of the computer paper, and carefully look at each of the individual eleven-inch sections. When you get to the very last eleven-inch section (the 212th section), this represents approximately the beginning of agriculture in the Mideast 10,000 years ago; therefore, during the preceding 211 sheets humanity's foods were derived from wild plants and animals. This little experiment will allow you to fully grasp how recent in the human evolutionary experience are cereal grains (as well as dairy products, salt, and the fatty meats of domesticated animals).
Humans may have indeed eaten these foods for "millennia," but millennia (even 10 millennia) in the overall timeframe of human existence represents 0.4%. Because the estimated amount of genetic change (0.005%) which has occurred in the human genome over this time period is negligible, the genetic makeup of modern man has remained essentially unchanged from that of pre-agricultural man [Eaton et al. 1985].
Consequently, the human genome is most ideally adapted to those foods which were available to pre-agricultural man, namely lean muscle meats, limited fatty organ meats, and wild fruits and vegetables--but, significantly, not grains, legumes, dairy products, or the very high-fat carcasses of modern domesticated animals.
Repercussions of antinutrient load.
As has been suggested by John Yudkin almost 30 years ago, cereal grains are a relatively recent food for hominids and our physiologies are still adjusting and adapting to their presence. Clearly, no human can live on a diet composed entirely of cereal grains (for one thing they have no vitamin C).
However, that is but one consideration, since eating raw cereal grains (as well as cooked cereal grains) wreaks havoc on the primate gut because of the high antinutrient content of grains. When cereal grain calories reach 50% or more of the daily caloric intake, humans suffer severe health consequences. One has to look no further than the severe pellagra epidemics of the late 19th century in America and the beri-beri scourges of southeast Asia to confirm this.
Additionally, in not only human beings, but in virtually every animal model studied (dog, rat, guinea pig, baboon, etc.), high cereal grain consumption promotes and induces rickets and osteomalacia [Robertson 1981; Ewer 1950; Sly 1984; Ford 1972, 1977; MacAuliffe 1976; Hidiroglou 1980; Dagnelie 1990]. Recent research has also implicated zinc deficiency due to the effects of excessive cereal grain consumption in retarding skeletal growth [Reinhold 1971; Halsted 1972; Sandstrom 1987; Golub 1996], including cases of hypogonadal dwarfism seen in modern-day Iran.
The pathologies introduced by higher levels of cereal grain consumption discussed above are due primarily to the effects of phytates in grains, which bind to minerals, preventing adequate uptake. To this point, we haven't even touched upon the other antinutrients which inflict damage on a wide variety of human physiological systems.
These antinutrients include protease inhibitors, alkylrescorcinols, alpha-amylase inhitors, molecular-mimicking proteins, etc. We will look further at these additional problems below. Clearly, however, cereal grains cannot contribute substantial calories to the diet of primates unless they are cooked and processed.
You have a very piecemeal approach
Humans have survived on all sorts of diets
even very bad ones
an optimal diet will provide all nutrients
without the need for supplements
with low anti nutrient load
eg
Humans can not make Vitamin C
So it has to come from food
slaves and serfs throughout the ages
have lived on shocking diets
people live on cigarettes and whiskey
but all that means ZIP
If we need B12 . Zinc .. Iodine
If we need long chaing omega 3
if we need Taurine
Vitamin A etc etc
And we need to fortify or supplement as a matter of course
Then the diet being promoted is not optimal
or built on sound principles
or a natural Human being Diet
It is a fad diet
And instead of being in nature
You are in a feedlot
with all the supplements they needed
YES don't focus on one nutrient or
one disease process
Get back to first principles
and a holistic approach
forget the Swami imo
and look to Science based evidence
motorway
You have a very piecemeal approach
forget the Swami imo
You missed my point for mentioning the swami......It was to highlight that Ornish is impartial enough to advocate rich omega 3 fish based products, in spite of his personal leaning towards a philosophy that advocates vegetarianism. It highlights his objectivity as a scientist.
and look to Science based evidence
motorway
The most important crop in Tibet is barley, and dough made from barley flour called tsampa, is the staple food of Tibet. This is either rolled into noodles or made into steamed dumplings called momos. Meat dishes are likely to be yak, goat, or mutton, often dried, or cooked into a spicy stew with potatoes. Mustard seed is cultivated in Tibet, and therefore features heavily in its cuisine. Yak yoghurt, butter and cheese are frequently eaten, and well-prepared yoghurt is considered something of a prestige item. Butter tea is very popular to drink.
Due to the high altitude of Tibet, the water boils at 90 degree Celsius, and cooking with water is impossible. The diet and foods are peculiar in Tibet.
The Tibetan diet consists mostly of meat, milks and other high-protein foods. The main staple is `tsamba'. Tea is a necessary. Travelers usually bring dried meat, tsamba, and tea for foods.
Heli
there is mountains of stuff out there
I haven't found any longitudinal studies of contemporary westerners following a Paleo diet.....the literature has many vegetarian studies though....especially out of Loma Linda university on Seventh Day Adventists....SDAs have even been compared with Baptists to control lifestyle and religious belief variables.
Bit you need to seek facts and be unbiased ( don't we all )
eg
you said
However, there are examples of landlocked communities (Ecuador, Bhutan, Tibet) who rarely if ever eat fish, and only minimal other flesh....certainly not enough to meet the levels the literature advocates.
Your quote doesn't quantify meat eaten. You are inferring because the word meat is used at the beginning of one sentence, that that qualifies it as the primary component of their diet...
Just like The difference between the Okinawans was their low grain consumption ( staple is sweiet potato ) and high fish consumption compared to USA
in any case it is not my place to preach diet
But start from what nutrients are required
and go to what unprocessed foods can provide
starting with what nutrients are required ignores the ability of humans to adapt. ie many Asians are lactose intolerant. Hunter gatherers have higher rates of diabetes than westerners, when they take on a western diet
eg all grain based foods are processed
eg an apple is not
evolutionary perspective is the right starting point
it is for all other aspects of the human condition
best of health
motorway
Because the estimated amount of genetic change (0.005%) which has occurred in the human genome over this time period is negligible, the genetic makeup of modern man has remained essentially unchanged from that of pre-agricultural man
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