The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

Hopefully in the next 12 months, before the election, we start and see some vision as to how we are going to achieve this super power status.

At the moment, we are heading toward three years in and there really isn't a lot of meat on the plate.

If it wasn't for the cheer squad having nothing to cheer about, there would be an outcry of, WTF is going on.

But that's the world we live in know, hopefully the Government is going through a period of reflection and pondering options.

I think governments need to bite the bullet and take over the coal stations that are privately owned and ensure that they are maintained and able to fill the gaps that will arise until enough VRE and storage is installed.

Things just aren't moving fast enough now.

 

[sptrawler]

Things just aren't moving fast enough now.

That's the real issue and the other problem with the situation is, if the Government is having trouble with moving it along, it must make the private sector extremely nervous.
Hopefully we see some serious headway, before unintended consequences start to raise their ugly heads, because if that happens everyone starts to get nervous.

 

[mullokintyre]

I would like to be proven wrong but i have read that the landowners are responsible ultimately with the removal of the big fans.
So if/when the wind farm collapses at the end of its profitable life, your council and environmental agency will knock on your door and say remove that ugly dangerous toy.
Talk about a poisoned gift...

Not sure what happens in other states, but according to the ABC , here in Victoria, the existing agreements require the company to remove or replace the turbines at the end of their economic life.
The oldest windfarm in Victoria at Coddington is coming up for 20 years in production, so we will find out soon enough.
From ABC News

Mick

 

[qldfrog]

Not sure what happens in other states, but according to the ABC , here in Victoria, the existing agreements require the company to remove or replace the turbines at the end of their economic life.
The oldest windfarm in Victoria at Coddington is coming up for 20 years in production, so we will find out soon enough.
From ABC News
View attachment 182465

Mick

as long as the owner of a wind farm business do not realise it could be a cheaper option to close door...
or are bankrupted just for economic reasons alone:

Sweden's largest wind farm faces bankruptcy - ArcticToday

PITEÅ Sweden’s largest wind farm, Markbygden Ett outside Piteå in Norrbotten, is facing bankruptcy. The Swedish Tax Agency opposes a reconstruction of the Chinese-owned company that has had financial problems for several years, writes Dagens Industri. Markbygden Ett, with 179 wind turbines, has...

www.arctictoday.com

“Irreparable injury:” Courts order dismantling of wind farms in US, France

Two separate court rulings highlight the importance of wind farm developers securing all necessary approvals, including environmental and social.

reneweconomy.com.au

etc etc
In mining, you are supposed to pay for site rehabilitation during the life of the mine, in a trust like account..
So if the mine collapses, not all cost are left to the taxpayers..
We should have a similar scheme for wind/solar farms to protect the land owners..obviously at an extra cost..again..on the power bill and further reduced profitability of these "free" green energy providers

 

[farmerge]

Not sure what happens in other states, but according to the ABC , here in Victoria, the existing agreements require the company to remove or replace the turbines at the end of their economic life.
The oldest windfarm in Victoria at Coddington is coming up for 20 years in production, so we will find out soon enough.
From ABC News
View attachment 182465

Mick

It would make economic sense for an operator/owner of a wind farm to have to pay into a trust account, perhaps on a yearly basis, for the removal of these windmills if they couldn't be refurbished at the end of a reasonable life span.

 

[qldfrog]

Let's hope rol that Australia will not repeat every mistake done previously elsewhere in the new world energy.
The game is,: find one we will not repeat...
Hard one

Another Green Energy Company Declares Bankruptcy, Thank Biden's Tariffs | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[SirRumpole]

It would make economic sense for an operator/owner of a wind farm to have to pay into a trust account, perhaps on a yearly basis, for the removal of these windmills if they couldn't be refurbished at the end of a reasonable life span.

Same goes for nuclear reactors I would suggest.

 

[qldfrog]

Same goes for nuclear reactors I would suggest.

Definitively and why for Australia, nuclear option can only reasonably be managed/owned by the government

 

[mullokintyre]

Same goes for nuclear reactors I would suggest.

But then the Nuclear is likely to have a longer lifespan.
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

But then the Nuclear is likely to have a longer lifespan.
Mick

but the dismantling cost will annihilate all profits from initial energy production as do all the western reactors....
anyway, Nuclear has nothing to do with energy, all about weaponry as i have been saying for years here.
But as I favour nukes for australian defence, I will not go in a fight to have people understand economics
For energy, we are in the situation of eskimos trying to insulate their freezer within their heated home..plenty of cheap energy and we voluntarily destroy our advantages to ensure we are remaining a minion of the world economy
we could burn diamonds too..plenty of pure carbon

 

[mullokintyre]

we could burn diamonds too..plenty of pure carbon

No way, think of the CO2 emissions....
Mick

 

[qldfrog]

No way, think of the CO2 emissions....
Mick

Indeed, that would be the issue

 

[sptrawler]

Thought I would put this post in as a reference for energy density, IMO it is an important part of power generation and really is one of the critical components of the debate regarding power generation.

Batteries have come a long way in the last hundred years, especially in the last 20 years, as has solar generation and everyone is expecting things to continue to improve on the battery solar development pathway.

Where the debate goes pear shaped IMO, is when the same people who espouse expected improvement in the development of renewables technology, have a completely closed mind on the potential improvements in nuclear generation and the benefits that could bring:

Without being political and only talking about energy density, I thought it would be worthwhile trying to explain energy density in a comparison form so that those who are interested can see the difference in the energy density of different energy sources.

It has to be remembered for each energy source the lower the energy density of the resource, the more of it you are going to need to produce the same amount of energy, that's why it is quoted in Mj(energy) / kg(volume).

Of course there are issues involved with all of the energy sources, be that mining and processing, through to toxic waste, but everything has to viewed in the context of what you are trying to achieve while taking everything into consideration.

Energy density is the amount of energy that can be released by a given mass or volume of fuel. It can be measured in gravimetric energy density (per unit of mass) or volumetric energy density (per unit of volume). Gravimetric energy density is relevant when comparing the energy efficiency of fuels.


Batteries, different types:

Batteries and alternative fuels:

Energy densities of common combustible fuels:

Energy density of cross section of common fuels and nuclear:

 

[qldfrog]

Thought I would put this post in as a reference for energy density, IMO it is an important part of power generation and really is one of the critical components of the debate regarding power generation.

Batteries have come a long way in the last hundred years, especially in the last 20 years, as has solar generation and everyone is expecting things to continue to improve on the battery solar development pathway.

Where the debate goes pear shaped IMO, is when the same people who espouse expected improvement in the development of renewables technology, have a completely closed mind on the potential improvements in nuclear generation and the benefits that could bring:

Without being political and only talking about energy density, I thought it would be worthwhile trying to explain energy density in a comparison form so that those who are interested can see the difference in the energy density of different energy sources.

It has to be remembered for each energy source the lower the energy density of the resource, the more of it you are going to need to produce the same amount of energy, that's why it is quoted in Mj(energy) / kg(volume).

Of course there are issues involved with all of the energy sources, be that mining and processing, through to toxic waste, but everything has to viewed in the context of what you are trying to achieve while taking everything into consideration.

Energy density is the amount of energy that can be released by a given mass or volume of fuel. It can be measured in gravimetric energy density (per unit of mass) or volumetric energy density (per unit of volume). Gravimetric energy density is relevant when comparing the energy efficiency of fuels.


Batteries, different types:

View attachment 182548

Batteries and alternative fuels:

View attachment 182552



Energy densities of common combustible fuels:


View attachment 182549
Energy density of cross section of common fuels and nuclear:


View attachment 182550

More than weight, i would use volume because one kg of H2 is not exactly a kg of coal volume wise, and especially for gas.
But outside gases where the comparison is a bit twisted, this is indeed the area where most "science unaware" people..to be kind.. are really out of their depth
A 34kg battery has less energy than burning a 1kg lump of wood.. science
So good luck to heat your houses on batteries

 

[sptrawler]

More than weight, i would use volume because one kg of H2 is not exactly a kg of coal volume wise, and especially for gas.
But outside gases where the comparison is a bit twisted, this is indeed the area where most "science unaware" people..to be kind.. are really out of their depth
A 34kg battery has less energy than burning a 1kg lump of wood.. science
So good luck to heat your houses on batteries

Was that really necassary, in the context of trying to keep it simple, for some who are simple. Lol

 

[qldfrog]

Was that really necassary, in the context of trying to keep it simple, for some who are simple. Lol

Ok apologies but most do not realise the difference between a battery and a 60l tank of diesel, even at 20% efficiency

 

[Smurf1976]

Hopefully we see some serious headway, before unintended consequences start to raise their ugly heads, because if that happens everyone starts to get nervous.

You mean like only having 1 of the 4 generating units at Loy Yang A working right now?

Station output past 30 days by unit stacked 4, 3, 2, 1 from bottom of chart upwards.

Latest day is incomplete but unit 4 tripped at 5:50pm so that leaves unit 1 as the only one running. Versus Monday 5th August it was all going fine, all four were on.

 

[sptrawler]

You mean like only having 1 of the 4 generating units at Loy Yang A working right now?

Station output past 30 days by unit stacked 4, 3, 2, 1 from bottom of chart upwards.

Latest day is incomplete but unit 4 tripped at 5:50pm so that leaves unit 1 as the only one running. Versus Monday 5th August it was all going fine, all four were on.

View attachment 182577

What the Government hasn't worked out is, fixing a worn out coal fired power station isn't as simple as throwing more money at it.
I think they will find there will be a convergance of ideology and reality, yet again.
When the Government is going to press the panic button is anyones guess, my guess is they are hoping it is after the next election, blind Freddy is starting to see this whole agenda is a festering boil.

 

[sptrawler]

Interesting article today, companies are scamming the solar installation rebate scheme, well chasing Government rebate scams is a known scam, isn't it?

 

[SirRumpole]

You mean like only having 1 of the 4 generating units at Loy Yang A working right now?

Station output past 30 days by unit stacked 4, 3, 2, 1 from bottom of chart upwards.

Latest day is incomplete but unit 4 tripped at 5:50pm so that leaves unit 1 as the only one running. Versus Monday 5th August it was all going fine, all four were on.

View attachment 182577

Are these stations just not being maintained , or are they so old it's not worth maintaining them?

In other words is there hope for them if they get proper servicing?