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I do not think society is given any choice are we?I posted quite a bit about it when it was first announced but in short, a key issue is there's more than one way of building it, indeed there's actually quite a lot of options for building something there.
At present they're going down the track of 24 hours' storage which, ultimately, does require deep firming from some other means (in practice, gas turbines). Alternative designs are possible, including scaling the whole thing up or alternatively keeping the present scale (or even scaling it down) but changing that to a higher or lower power output in return for a shorter or longer duration.
So on one hand I'll give absolute credit to the Qld state government. They've set up their own hydro company from scratch and they're jumping straight in the deep end of large scale projects. Not only that, they're not afraid to ruffle some feathers politically - Pioneer-Burdekin is literally right next to a National Park and not without controversy for the effects on residents too. So they haven't shied away from hard decisions there.
On the other hand, is 24 hours' storage enough? Well that depends on what the objective is and for that reason, I'm firmly of the view that an overall "master plan" is needed before building $ billions worth of infrastructure. Otherwise there's a risk of building the wrong thing, this isn't a situation where "cross that bridge where we come to it" is a wise strategy. Hence my previous post - society needs to decide the destination.
I guess the thing is, what is the point of using fossil fuels, if some or all of it can be replaced by renewables?Sorry for the previous post tone:
Am a bit pxxsed off:
I read a great study about the net zero cost with quite strong looking figures putting it at 60% of our GDP..so a wet dream.
And probably doing it again within 15y..
L
Was less than a week ago and wanted to share it as a key debate idea piece
But guess what..unable to find it again in any search...so conspiracy or just bad user?
In short, to maintain current consumption and grid on wo CO2 is an unaffordable task so something will have to go:
Blackout or Not Zero....
If anyone else has read this?
Agree cf fossil fuel disappearing but we have plenty so why bother spending now on what will be obsolete tech when we can easily wait 100y.I guess the thing is, what is the point of using fossil fuels, if some or all of it can be replaced by renewables?
At the end of the day if renewables peak out at replacing 60% of fossil fuel usage, that is better than not doing it.
Whether fossil fuel is causing climate change or not, IMO it doesn't change the fact that it will run out, so if we can reduce the usage through technology it has to be better for the long term survival of humans on this planet.
Everything on the planet is finite, the sooner we use it, the sooner we're done.
As technology improves, so does the way we use it, renewables is only another step in our history the same as the 8 track, then the cassette, to cd's, then dvd's they are all moving into the history books and being replaced by streaming so less resources are used.
Eventually fossil fuel probably will.
Only my thoughts
Yes, but I think the results will drive the logics, the narrative is rolling with theme, until things go pear shaped it is just your reality against theirs.Agree cf fossil fuel disappearing but we have plenty so why bother spending now on what will be obsolete tech when we can easily wait 100y.
Don't we have enough issues?
..the 60% of GDP was the cost of a net zero for Australia.
We will starve, litteraly ,before we get there or most probably offshore our carbon use to China and buy everything from there ..
If every good and food is imported , all energy created with imported hardware, and we have blackouts monthly, Australia itself can bask in being a broke carbon neutral eden by growing forests and letting them burn in "CC caused wildfires" later
This is the 3rd time I find proper studies on the internet not PC according to the propaganda and can not retrieve them a week later .
I will from now on download them as soon as read..,to be able to share them.
If anyone else has access to that paper, please share here: a costing at 60% of GDP is critical to this thread and to our economy
Yep, ultimately fossil fuels are finite resources.I guess the thing is, what is the point of using fossil fuels, if some or all of it can be replaced by renewables?
At the end of the day if renewables peak out at replacing 60% of fossil fuel usage, that is better than not doing it.
Whether fossil fuel is causing climate change or not, IMO it doesn't change the fact that it will run out, so if we can reduce the usage through technology it has to be better for the long term survival of humans on this planet.
'The Commission expects that the increasing value of renewable hydro-electric energy will ultimately lead to the progressive development of these medium and small incremental resources in the next century. Whilst some are relatively small individually, in aggregate they amount to a substantial increase in energy resource to the State of about 285 MW average output. There is little doubt that future generations will realize the benefits to be gained from their development in preference to fossil and other fuels'
I agree about finite reserve etc etc but:Yep, ultimately fossil fuels are finite resources.
Oil and gas do seem to be really quite limited relative to present use of them. If it wasn't for that, if supplies were plentiful, then the industry wouldn't go into deep water, physically hostile environments and war zones in order to gain access. If there were vast resources elsewhere then it'd be a pretty impressive conspiracy to have kept them hidden so long.
Coal there's a lot more of it but it does ultimately have limits. In particular, the deeper the mines go the more costly it gets. Plus there's a lot of coal that realistically nobody's going to want to mine.
In the Australian context well there's technically mineable coal within the metropolitan areas of Sydney, Melbourne and Hobart, there's coal west of Brisbane and in Adelaide's case there's coal under the CBD itself at the northern end and it stretches under the Torrens River up toward North Adelaide. So within that area is the heart of the commercial district, a good portion of all Adelaide hotels, state parliament, the Oval, the zoo, the Royal Adelaide Hospital, railway station, university, a golf course, etc. Chance anyone's going to mine that I think we can safely say is zero.
Here's a quote from Tasmania over 40 years ago:
That was written about 5 years before mainstream media first reported on what was then termed "the greenhouse effect" now known as climate change.
It's referring to a number of individually small hydro schemes in Tasmania that have been identified as technically practical to build but never actually built and which have never seen a serious proposal to build them, although detailed investigations were done in the past to confirm viability. Note the 285 MW is average output, constant 24/365, and is not a peak power value which would be considerably higher. That list doesn't include the more well known unbuilt schemes subject to past controversy in the south-west.
Now I'll readily acknowledge there's a legitimate case against some hydro developments on environmental grounds, anything that wipes out a species is too high a price to pay for keeping the lights on, but on the other hand fossil fuels have very real, undeniable problems far beyond just climate change. Oil and gas are physically quite limited whilst coal comes with all the issues of digging up the land, ash to dispose of, etc.
Plus it must be said oil, gas and war are never too far from each other. Another reason to not like them.
So there's a lot of reasons to want to minimise the use of fossil fuels even without saying a word about climate. They're problematic full stop.
I agree about finite reserve etc etc but:
coal can be kept underground with long wall mining:
open cut is imho an archaic cheap and dirty way , sadly preferred here, and you do not do underground for copper lithium or whatever you need to mine to replace coal
Coal can and should be the least destroying mining available on earth due to its clear stratification.
Similarly oil and gas..there are oil pumps in the middle of cities
we are blessed in Australia with an almost endless gift of fossil fuels (not oil) for the size of our population and have sun:
we should be the last country on earth to target net zero: maybe 50% zero etc..
Of course use solar "free energy" if it makes sense economically but only so.
but spending money to replace something we got basically for free is just crazy.
Once again: if solar or wind is more expensive in $ or use of oil/coal..we should not have it here
Does Iceland spend money on desalination plant because there is no more fresh water in California?
This is not as stupid an argument as it sounds.
And definitively not a good reason to get broke: the decisions are made now(or were made 10y ago), while we are having uninterrupted power and basking in wealth: the results will be poverty and misery on our children..we have no excuse
Qfrog love to see that "paper" which says that going renewable will cost 60% of GDP. Absolutely certain it comes from the same (type of) sources that promote lizard people, shape shifters or liars/delusionists who pretend that global warming is not real and/or isn't affecting our world.Agree cf fossil fuel disappearing but we have plenty so why bother spending now on what will be obsolete tech when we can easily wait 100y.
Don't we have enough issues?
..the 60% of GDP was the cost of a net zero for Australia.
We will starve, litteraly ,before we get there or most probably offshore our carbon use to China and buy everything from there ..
If every good and food is imported , all energy created with imported hardware, and we have blackouts monthly, Australia itself can bask in being a broke carbon neutral eden by growing forests and letting them burn in "CC caused wildfires" later
This is the 3rd time I find proper studies on the internet not PC according to the propaganda and can not retrieve them a week later .
I will from now on download them as soon as read..,to be able to share them.
If anyone else has access to that paper, please share here: a costing at 60% of GDP is critical to this thread and to our economy
Not so fast.....What is the cost and cost benefits of replacing coal fired power stations across the US ? This analysis from Forbes business magazine details how much more cost effective solar/wind/storage options are to fossil fuel.
Really is a no brainer.
Government ultimately created that mess.If we had gas it wouldn't be a major problem or at least we would have somewhere to run to unfortunately gas companies have told us we cannot not have access to Australian reserves...
Incredible isn't it?And the issues just keep coming.
Major wind farm withdrawn after more planning delays, downsizing, name changes and fierce opposition | RenewEconomy
Ark Energy pulls plans for its second wind project in six months, this time over repeated planning delays for a project criticised for being too close to world heritage areas.reneweconomy.com.au
@SirRumpole Would appear that problem solving isn't their "thing'.Incredible isn't it?
Tout wind power publicly then strangle it behind the scenes.
What are the Feds playing at?
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