The future of energy generation and storage

sptrawler said:

The Griffin story in W.A just highlights where this is going, one only hopes there actually is a light at the end of the tunnel, because the tunnel keeps getting longer and the light keeps getting dimmer IMO.

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There is indeed a light at the end of a tunnel.

Unfortunately it's attached to a train that's heading your way.....

sptrawler said:

They closed Kwinana power station that could fire three fuels, coal, gas or oil

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As an example of how good Australia used to be at this stuff, Kwinana is one of very few facilities worldwide that successfully got that working, the ability to run on three separate fuels and switch seamlessly between them.

Plenty have done it with two fuels but very few with three.

Bonus of having a beach right next to it.

Smurf1976 said:

As an example of how good Australia used to be at this stuff, Kwinana is one of very few facilities worldwide that successfully got that working, the ability to run on three separate fuels and switch seamlessly between them.

Plenty have done it with two fuels but very few with three.

Bonus of having a beach right next to it.

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I'm sure power system is rueing the day Muja C was kept and KPS A &C were retired, always on time A being front fired with ball mills could crush and burn gravel, C was just a sports car supreme flexibility.
Just great units wasted, emotion and politics driving the agenda, rather than critical analysis.
As usual. Lol
Now everyone pays for the brain fart and the job is made ten times harder.

sptrawler said:

Just great units wasted, emotion and politics driving the agenda, rather than critical analysis.

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I assume there was some politics involved due to Kwinana being ~30km from the Perth CBD in a straight line?

I doubt Blackout Bowen was interested in listening to any of the arguments for nuclear.

Sean K said:

I doubt Blackout Bowen was interested in listening to any of the arguments for nuclear.

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Bowen is a deadset ideological idiot. Guy will either send us back to the stone age or completely broke. Big issue will be the legacy problems from all of it.

moXJO said:

Bowen is a deadset ideological idiot. Guy will either send us back to the stone age or completely broke. Big issue will be the legacy problems from all of it.

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Reality overtakes ideology all the time, Bowen is just making a fool of himself, it will end up costing them an election.

Sean K said:

I doubt Blackout Bowen was interested in listening to any of the arguments for nuclear.

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So lets see an independent cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power in the Australian context .

If it stacks up against the competition, fine, if not it's not a goer here.

SirRumpole said:

So lets see an independent cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power in the Australian context .

If it stacks up against the competition, fine, if not it's not a goer here.

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It depends what price you put on keeping the temp below 1.5 degrees, if that’s the aim. So, would have to include how much our reductions would change the global temp too.

SirRumpole said:

So lets see an independent cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power in the Australian context .

If it stacks up against the competition, fine, if not it's not a goer here.

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I agree 100%, but Bowen has already ruled out that option, he gives off the impression he isn't prepared to entertain nuclear, at all.

IMO that is what what will cost them the election if he isn't careful, more and more of the younger generation are becoming pragmatic about nuclear, they actually may say it makes more sense to have some nuclear with less dams and solar farms from an environmental perspective.

While Bowen has a tin ear, more and more voters will see it as an ideological decision, rather than a measured one.
As usual time will tell, but it is looking like another my way or the highway moment, which is starting to becoming a trademark of the Government.
Australia as @Smurf1976 has shown, could quite possibly go completely renewables, but as it progresses and the visual and ecological cost starts adding up, my gut feeling is so will the 'green' backlash.

Interesting times, things will heat up now the Govt appears to be underwriting the capital costs and it sounds like there will be take or pay contracts for generation, so it sounds like it will be a guaranteed no loss for business which they always like.
As you've said before Rumpy, why not just do it themselves, rather than the privates?
It will get interesting as the coal generators bring forward their closures, a very delicate balancing act is in play at the moment.

MELBOURNE, Dec 8 (Reuters) - The Australian government has agreed to underwrite new wind and solar farms backed by energy storage, in hopes of unleashing investment at least A$10 billion ($6.7 billion) to stabilise the grid as coal-fired plants retire.

The long-awaited pact with states will not include payments to coal-fired plants, which had been a major stumbling block in talks between the federal government, regulators and states about a plan for stable power supply.

"This is a sensible, carefully designed mechanism which will unleash investment in clean, dispatchable energy right across Australia, firming our grids, providing that extra capacity as more and more old power stations leave the grid," Energy Minister Chris Bowen said.

He said the government would hold tenders for the capacity and agree floor and ceiling revenue for the projects. If revenue is below the floor, the government will pay the difference, and if the ceiling is exceeded, it will share in the profits.

An article on the latest COP meeting in Dubai.
From the article:
Federal Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen, who will be Australia's top representative in Dubai, said the country was already well on the way towards meeting its own 2030 green energy target of 82 per cent.

Mr Bowen said the "signature initiative" of the UAE at COP28 made sense given the need for a global push to clean up the international economy and the fact that renewable sources, particularly solar, were now the cheapest forms of energy.

"Today the Albanese Government joins over 100 countries, alongside other major energy exporters the United States, Canada, Norway and more, to support a key push on renewables and energy efficiency," Mr Bowen said.
"We know that renewables are the cleanest and cheapest form of energy – and that energy efficiency can also help drive down bills and emissions.

"That's why the Albanese Government is supporting the UAE's signature initiative to triple global renewable energy generation capacity and double global average annual energy efficiency improvements by 2030."

Australia's embrace of much loftier renewable energy goals comes just days after the government had to rewrite the blueprint for its own, domestic target amid concerns the country would fall short.

Under the shake-up announced late last month, the government has outlined plans to use taxpayer subsidies through its "capacity investment scheme" to underwrite renewable energy projects and the so-called firming capacity that would be needed to back them up, such as batteries.
In announcing the government's support for a tripling of renewable energy globally, Mr Bowen suggested the rest of the world could learn from Australia's early lead on some aspects of the energy transition.

He noted Australia led the world in the uptake of rooftop solar power — about one in every three homes has an installation — while it was also well-placed to develop clean export industries such as green hydrogen.

"Australia has the highest penetration of rooftop solar in the world and has a plan for 82 per cent renewables by 2030," the minister said.
"Our expanded Capacity Investment Scheme will help deliver 32 gigawatts of new renewable generation and storage, providing certainty for renewable investors and cheaper, cleaner energy for households and businesses.

SirRumpole said:

So lets see an independent cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power in the Australian context .

If it stacks up against the competition, fine, if not it's not a goer here.

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ATM its nowhere near achievable that could change if small reactors get going and we have clear access to fuel (unlikely).

Sean K said:

So, would have to include how much our reductions would change the global temp too.

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Five tenths of four fifths of zip ?

sptrawler said:

While Bowen has a tin ear, more and more voters will see it as an ideological decision, rather than a measured one.
As usual time will tell, but it is looking like another my way or the highway moment, which is starting to becoming a trademark of the Government.

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Which is why the politicians have to get out of the way imo and turn the policy over to a team of engineers and scientists who actually know something about designing energy grids.

They produce the recommendations, the government passes the necessary legislation, does the approvals and finds the money.

I don't want Bowen or Bandt designing energy systems I want someone who are professionals in that area.

SirRumpole said:

Which is why the politicians have to get out of the way imo and turn the policy over to a team of engineers and scientists who actually know something about designing energy grids.

They produce the recommendations, the government passes the necessary legislation, does the approvals and finds the money.

I don't want Bowen or Bandt designing energy systems I want someone who are professionals in that area.

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Sir R check out Sawyers Valley Flywheel via google. A most interesting innovation, and I have actually seen it.

IFocus said:

ATM its nowhere near achievable that could change if small reactors get going and we have clear access to fuel (unlikely).

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I heard these things are a bust. Not likely to work.

moXJO said:

I heard these things are a bust. Not likely to work.

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They certainly struggle on a cost base analysis, but if they can overcome their short comings they provide a huge upside in flexible deployment.
The big light water reactors are terrific for huge grid systems where you can centralise you generation, as in the EU, U.K etc, but as the size reduces the economics and waste product blows out, that is what they are trying to overcome.
There are a lot of countries where the ability to deploy SMR around 300MW would be great, for example places that have limited ability to deploy renewables and or storage and have only fossil fuel options.
In a lot of ways the nuclear subs and nuclear powered ships are using small modular reactors, but with military deployment regulations, certifications, emissions and efficiencies required aren't the same as those deployed in a civil capacity. A bit like a Hummer in the shop, isn't the same as the Hummer the U.S army use.

There are plenty of naysayers and there are plenty of supporters, time will tell if it becomes viable.



This is a very comprehensive article on nuclear power and propulsion:

farmerge said:

Sir R check out Sawyers Valley Flywheel via google. A most interesting innovation, and I have actually seen it.

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Have just done that, looks good.

@Smurf1976 could comment further but similar systems are being installed in the grid.

They are known as synchronous condensers. Not exactly the same as flywheels but work on a similar principle.

I don't think Macron will change Labor's illogical ideological stand.



French President Emmanuel Macron has urged Australia to lift its nuclear ban as the Albanese government shunned a declaration endorsed by more than 20 countries at the UN climate change conference to triple nuclear energy capacity globally by 2050.

Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen, who will head to Dubai for the COP28 summit this week, on Sunday faced Coalition claims that the government had “foolishly isolated itself from its AUKUS allies” by refusing to sign up to the nuclear pledge.

When 17-year-old Nuclear for Australia founder Will Shackel, who identified himself as an Australian, asked Mr Macron for his thoughts on nuclear energy’s role in global plans to decarbonise, the President responded: “I hope that you will manage to lift the ban. Nuclear energy is a source that is necessary to succeed for carbon neutrality in 2050.”

SirRumpole said:

@Smurf1976 could comment further but similar systems are being installed in the grid.

They are known as synchronous condensers. Not exactly the same as flywheels but work on a similar principle.

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Pretty sure I went into some detail a while ago...

In SA four large ones have been installed, connected at strong points in the transmission system, to provide system strength in the absence of running conventional synchronous generation and that's enabled a reduction in conventional synchronous units online to as few as two.

Synchronous generation = in practice coal, gas, oil, hydro, nuclear etc power stations are synchronous machines. There are minor exceptions on a small scale but any substantial power station will be running synchronous generation.

There's an official "cheat sheet" that's been worked out which lists all acceptable minimum combinations of plant to be on and which must be run regardless of the actual need for electricity but in short with all four synchronous condensers on, it's possible to go as low as two conventional generating units running in the state with both at minimum output.

In practice for economic and operational reasons that's typically done as either 2 x 200MW steam units run at 40MW each or it's done as 1 x 200MW steam run at 40MW and 1 x 90MW gas turbine run at 30MW noting these are at separate sites a long way apart.

Indeed a bit off topic but the 90MW gas turbine is by itself in the middle of nowhere. I don't know the full history there, how that came to be, but it's the only generating plant at the site and it really is stuck in the middle of a field pretty much:


Zoom out I don't know the history but there must be a story as to why it was built there surely. It's a suitable location, it connects to the Moomba - Adelaide gas pipeline, and nobody's likely to complain about noise but still, it seems an odd place for one gas turbine all by itself.

All that's assuming an abundance of wind and solar such that gas is only running for system strength. No problem putting more units on, these are minimums.

Now without the synchronous condensers those requirements for conventional plant get a lot larger to maintain system strength and brings the problem of having to generate from gas when there's otherwise no need. Hence the synchronous condensers were built.

Also various small syncons at individual wind or solar farms as a condition of their connection to the system. That's a common approach in most states at least for the new installations.

Other states generally less issues but they're going to become a much bigger issue as conventional plant retires and is replaced with wind and solar. NSW did have some issues there a couple of weeks ago with AEMO directing plant to remain on simply to maintain system strength under circumstances when there was otherwise no need for that to run (due to wind and solar supplying much of the load) and for financial reasons the owners wouldn't have run it without the direction to do so. So it's becoming more of an issue in other states.