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The future of energy generation and storage

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Humid said:
No you said they are like batteries and you throw emojis round like a peanut ?
Your making a fool of yourself
How old are you 14
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Ok I thought you had a brain obviously not.
What is a battery? A medium for storing electrical energy, so that it can be used at a later time.
What is hydrogen, a method of storing energy so that it can be used at a later time.
Now the hard bit, what converts that stored hydrogen energy, into electricity at a later time.
Hmmm I think you know the answer, the gas turbine.
So it is like a battery, the energy is stored as hydrogen and discharged when you need it through the gas turbine.
Now you will be able to sound smart in the crib room, for a change.?
You could also tell the guys in the crib room that a hydro dam is like a really big battery, but you will have to explain the difference between chemical energy and kinetic energy, so best you don't go there.?

By the way, I loved the peanut emoji, i bet that was the first thing that came into your mind, when I said buy yourself an ice cream.
I should have said, buy yourself a bag of peanuts.?
 
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sptrawler said:
Ok I thought you had a brain obviously not.
What is a battery? A medium for storing electrical energy, so that it can be used at a later time.
What is hydrogen, a method of storing energy so that it can be used at a later time.
Now the hard bit, what converts that stored hydrogen energy, into electricity at a later time.
Hmmm I think you know the answer, the gas turbine.
So it is like a battery, the energy is stored as hydrogen and discharged when you need it through the gas turbine.
Now you will be able to sound smart in the crib room, for a change.?
You could also tell the guys in the crib room that a hydro dam is like a really big battery, but you will have to explain the difference between chemical energy and kinetic energy, so best you don't go there.?

By the way, I loved the peanut emoji, i bet that was the first thing that came into your mind, when I said buy yourself an ice cream.
I should have said, buy yourself a bag of peanuts.?
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So any generator is like a batttery.....ok thanks
 
sptrawler said:
I would be surprised, it is too usefull for Snowy Hydro IMO.
Also it will only run when required, so not really suitable for a private generator, a big battery would be better value for money for the privates IMO.
No moving parts, no workers, no fuel. :xyxthumbs
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Thought they were the same
 
They both change energy into electricity, the difference is how the energy is stored.
For a storage function they can both provide that service, strange you can't understand that.
If excess renewable generation is used to produce hydrogen, then that hydrogen is used at a later date to produce electricity it can be classed as a form of storage, it's a shame you can't grasp the concept.
An electric car and a car fitted with an internal combustion engine are both cars, they both provide the same functionality in certain applications. They are both modes of transport, but they aren't identical In how they operate.
 
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sptrawler said:
They both change energy into electricity, the difference is how the energy is stored.
For a storage function they can both provide that service, strange you can't understand that.
If excess renewable generation is used to produce hydrogen, then that hydrogen is used at a later date to produce electricity it can be classed as a form of storage, it's a shame you can't grasp the concept.
An electric car and a car fitted with an internal combustion engine are both cars, they both provide the same functionality in certain applications. They are both modes of transport, but they aren't identical In how they operate.
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Ones a battery ones a power station
The fuel is irrelevant
 
You didn't hear it from me and it's all "speculation, allegedly and possibly false".

But the guys on snowy hydro are massively behind. Contracts went to someone who was something like a billion $ under the next guy. They will most likely kill that budget with amendments. I'm hearing that things are not being done "to standard" and then redone at a higher cost in amendment. Not sure about much of the details.

Apparently the crews down there are a lot of leaners. I'm hearing it's a bit of a sht show though. It does happen a lot on these big jobs though.

I always wondered why they don’t have a govt worker on-site observing/overseeing the job that has experience. Not just a bunch of walks that occasionally turn up in a group for half an hour then go off to brunch.
 
moXJO said:
You didn't hear it from me and it's all "speculation, allegedly and possibly false".

But the guys on snowy hydro are massively behind. Contracts went to someone who was something like a billion $ under the next guy. They will most likely kill that budget with amendments. I'm hearing that things are not being done "to standard" and then redone at a higher cost in amendment. Not sure about much of the details.

Apparently the crews down there are a lot of leaners. I'm hearing it's a bit of a sht show though. It does happen a lot on these big jobs though.

I always wondered why they don’t have a govt worker on-site observing/overseeing the job that has experience. Not just a bunch of walks that occasionally turn up in a group for half an hour then go off to brunch.
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A mate reckons money was ordinary and a lot of labour hire with very little experience
 
Humid said:
A mate reckons money was ordinary and a lot of labour hire with very little experience
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I heard the same thing. I think a lot of young guys jumped at it as they ain't earning that much anywhere else. I think it's 2 weeks on 1 off.

I'd say the hammer is about to drop and they will shake out the duds.
 
Humid said:
Ones a battery ones a power station
The fuel is irrelevant
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Actually one is passive storage, the other is a generator, if you want to be accurate.
One requires fuel the other doesn't, they both store energy, the battery in chemical form, the generator in the fuel source.
The fuel is very relevant in the clean emissions debate, how the battery is charged and the fuel the generator uses is extremely relevant, you could say it is of paramount importance.
The battery and the generator are providing peaking power, so really they are carrying out the same function, the difference is the generator can carry out the function for a longer period as long as there is fuel available. :whistling:
In some situations the battery will be more suitable, in other situations the generator will be more suitable.
 
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sptrawler said:
Actually one is passive storage, the other is a generator, if you want to be accurate.
One requires fuel the other doesn't, they both store energy, the battery in chemical form, the generator in the fuel source.
The fuel is very relevant in the clean emissions debate, how the battery is charged and the fuel the generator uses is extremely relevant, you could say it is of paramount importance.
The battery and the generator are providing peaking power, so really they are carrying out the same function, the difference is the generator can carry out the function for a longer period as long as there is fuel available. :whistling:
In some situations the battery will be more suitable, in other situations the generator will be more suitable.
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The Libs want to run Kurri Kurri on NG and labor on H
Are they both batteries?
Or both power stations
 
sptrawler said:
At last, the penny has dropped, well done.
Buy youself an icecream.?
Im agreeing with Albo, you were saying it couldnt be done.?
You obviously didnt even know gas turbines could run on hydrogen and you work on them, how sad is that??
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I posted the story about Kurri Kurri and hydrogen you moron
 
Smurf1976 said:
So far as renewables and storage is concerned, a chart:

This is a daily chart for Victoria over the past 12 months to and including Sunday 13 February 2020 showing wind (green) and solar (yellow) generation only. The solar figures include the estimated total production from small (rooftop) systems as well as large solar farms.

View attachment 137531

Looking at that chart, I draw attention to the periods of multiple consecutive days of low yield:

23 - 30 April inclusive (8 days)

11 - 14 June inclusive (4 days)

5 July - 10 July inclusive (6 days)

Those are what I and a few others are calling VRE droughts (Variable Renewable Energy - wind and solar) and looking back over the entire history of wind and solar in the National Electricity Market, we get a similar situation each and every year without exception, there's always at least one so they're not unexpected.

The particularly difficult problems being that they occur at times of high demand, the week 5 - 11 July was Victoria's second highest consumption week for the year exceeded only slightly by the week of 24 - 30 January 2020.

If we include the use of gas, on the assumption that there's a desire to shift that to electricity, then that relationship is even stronger with winter by far the highest consumption season and also the one where VRE droughts occur. Noting that gas dominates the space heating market in Victoria.

THAT is the elephant in the room with all this. How to cope with a week or so of terribly low yields which just happens to coincide with, if we assume a shift to electric heating from gas, the absolute peak of consumption.

Now before anyone says "but that's only Victoria Smurf, it won't happen in the other states at the same time" unfortunately it does. In the context of the NEM, the only state that didn't see low yields at the exact same time was Queensland although even it was below average just not drastically so.

View attachment 137534

View attachment 137535

View attachment 137536


View attachment 137538

That the lights stay on is because:

View attachment 137541

It's not a coincidence that the period of highest hydro output is the same period as lowest wind + solar output in multiple states. That's completely intentional.

And gas:

View attachment 137543

And whilst on a smaller scale, diesel ramped up at the same time too:

View attachment 137544

That there is the greatest challenge with all of this.

Storing energy on a short term basis, using the midday sun to run lights at night, is straightforward and very doable. It's the energy equivalent of investing during a bull market - it's not that hard to make it work.

It's coping with the week of poor yields which also sees a jump in consumption that's the hard bit.

It wouldn't be impossible to do it with hydro, from a purely physical perspective it's doable, but the big problem can be summed up quite briefly by saying that there are over 20,000 sites for pumped storage and the fall into two categories:

1. A very large number of individually small sites that store typically 3 GWh each although it does vary.

2. A very small number of individually large sites storing tens, hundreds or even thousands of GWh.

Now to get 8 hours of storage the sites in the first category are very doable. Take a 2 GWh site, install 250 MW of generating capacity and it runs for 8 hours.

Trouble is, if you want 200 hours out of it well now you can only install 10 MW of capacity and that kills the economics stone dead beyond belief. Go down that track and the problem is that, based on AEMO's calculations of 19GW of firm non-constrained capacity required, it's simply cost prohibitive to do it with lots of tiny schemes. They work if you're going to develop them for 8 or 10 hours storage, but not if you want a week's worth since the cost is just too high given the number required.

That leaves the large sites which, due to scale of economy, are far cheaper per GWh stored. One big dam versus a hundred or more "turkey nest" dams - the big one wins hands down. There are sites where 1000 MW or more can be installed at a single location quite easily.

Just one elephant ready to squash the table and all those sitting around it there and I think we all know what that one is - those big sites are mostly in National Parks or other similarly designated areas yes.

That's the primary reason nobody's going anywhere near that one. If we're going to build big dams in National Parks etc then that'll have to come from the Prime Minister, there's zero interest in the industry in starting a war on that scale. Even state Premiers generally won't go anywhere near the concept.

Hence the universal assumption that gas will remain part of the mix going forward with the only question being about the detail of what that gas actually is. Some of it will be natural gas, some will be diesel simply because it's so easy to store as a backup. But longer term there are certainly thoughts that hydrogen could be the gas used and that coal gasification might also play a role.

Personally I'd argue more toward renewables and that a scientific, not political, process ought to be the determinant of whether or not a dam can be built at any given location. There are certainly places that should be left untouched, wilderness has a very real value, but likewise the need to move away from fossil fuels is real and urgent and not everywhere that a big dam could be built is genuinely worthy of protecting.

Politically however nobody's going near that one at least not right now. Gas is the path of least resistance and the one that will be chosen. Hence AEMO and even the existing hydro operators are all working on that basis, gas is part of the mix going forward since politically it's hard to see any other option gaining traction in reality. :2twocents

All charts posted sourced from OpenNEM
Click to expand...

Great piece of analysis and research Smurf. It does nail the elephant in the room of realistic simultaneous drops on renewable energy across the country. I can understand why standby gas powered generators seem to be the most realistic solution. As you point out the short term battery options won't cover a week of low power.
 
Still carrying on with your senseless dribble @Humid , why don't you try and add some value, to the forum.
It certainly would be a pleasant change.
 

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