The future of energy generation and storage

[rederob]

As it should be.
If ARENA is distributing taxpayers money to assist companies develop hydrogen projects, it is Federal Government funding of those projects.

The High Court delivers justice, but the federal government has no say in its decisions, just as it has no say in ARENA's funding grants.
ARENA screams for greater funding but is continually thwarted and confused.
My point continues to be that the federal government lacks policy to move us beyond an aspiration - as in the 2019 Hydrogen strategy - to commitment.
Until the weekend Scomo couldn't tell us the government was going to commit to net zero by 2050. Maybe that will now influence AEMO's direction as its scenario settings can be narrowed considerably and it's advice to Taylor be less scattergun.

 

[sptrawler]

The High Court delivers justice, but the federal government has no say in its decisions, just as it has no say in ARENA's funding grants.
ARENA screams for greater funding but is continually thwarted and confused.
My point continues to be that the federal government lacks policy to move us beyond an aspiration - as in the 2019 Hydrogen strategy - to commitment.
Until the weekend Scomo couldn't tell us the government was going to commit to net zero by 2050. Maybe that will now influence AEMO's direction as its scenario settings can be narrowed considerably and it's advice to Taylor be less scattergun.

The Feds still fund it.
Maybe you can tell me what Victoria or NSW are funding on the hydrogen front?

As usual a lot of rhetoric, but the only ones held accountable are the FEDS, all NSW and Vic have put up, is waffle and glossy BS.


"aspirational objectives of achieving net zero emissions by 2050" FFS

NSW Government action on climate change | AdaptNSW

The NSW Government is responding to climate change by helping businesses, households, communities and councils to adapt to climate change and reduce emissions.

climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au

Victoria’s emissions reduction pledges​

Victorian Government action on climate change

The Victorian Government is taking strong and lasting action on climate change

www.climatechange.vic.gov.au

Lots of pledges, can't find many Government hydrogen projects, plenty of talk about them though.

Renewable hydrogen

Renewable hydrogen offers potential as a clean, safe and reliable fuel source. Hydrogen production is becoming not only cleaner, but cheaper.

www.energy.vic.gov.au

https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/513345/Victorian-Renewable-Hydrogen-Industry-Development-Plan.pdf

Interesting that Victoria isn't further down the track, considering they were the first to adopt net zero by 2050, one would have thought they would already be well advanced on the hydrogen front.
Media release 9 June 2016:

Victoria’s Net Zero by 2050 Emissions Reduction Target

www.climatechange.vic.gov.au

I mean 2016 is five years ago, they had better get their skates on, maybe get past the glossy brochures .
Meanwhile Latrobe valley, still chugging along, Loy Yang A and B are not due to close until 2047.
If Loy Yang A and Loy Yang B are counted together they are the largest power station in Australia, generating 3280 MW of power

 

[IFocus]

The High Court delivers justice, but the federal government has no say in its decisions, just as it has no say in ARENA's funding grants.
ARENA screams for greater funding but is continually thwarted and confused.
My point continues to be that the federal government lacks policy to move us beyond an aspiration - as in the 2019 Hydrogen strategy - to commitment.
Until the weekend Scomo couldn't tell us the government was going to commit to net zero by 2050. Maybe that will now influence AEMO's direction as its scenario settings can be narrowed considerably and it's advice to Taylor be less scattergun.

Yep the politics run by the Coalition has been so poisoned that their hands are continually tied, 8 years in power and no policy or only movement when Barnaby says so its bazaar.

 

[sptrawler]

Yep the politics run by the Coalition has been so poisoned that their hands are continually tied, 8 years in power and no policy or only movement when Barnaby says so its bazaar.

Jeez you guys I thought you were all about inclusiveness, but when you see the way Dictator Dan works, I guess inclusiveness is only lip service as well.
Funny how a coalition only works when there is respect shown by both sides, I guess that is why Labor don't want a coalition with the Greens, they may actually have to do something about emissions, rather than give lip service like Victoria does.

 

[rederob]

Yep the politics run by the Coalition has been so poisoned that their hands are continually tied, 8 years in power and no policy or only movement when Barnaby says so its bazaar.

Most of the States have actual commitments to develop hydrogen, but the Coalition still has no specific policy.
Try as @sptrawler might, he has been pained by this raw nerve so has tried to change subject with successive posts.
I thought he might have at least found what NSW is planning as I think its incentivisations are very clever, aside from prioritising the Hunter and Illawarra regions as its hydrogen hubs, thereby mitigating coal industry job losses.
It is perplexing that a coalition-held State has worked out the necessary levers to drive a hydrogen future while its federal counterpart continues to look in the rear vision mirror.

 

[sptrawler]

Most of the States have actual commitments to develop hydrogen, but the Coalition still has no specific policy.
Try as @sptrawler might, he has been pained by this raw nerve so has tried to change subject with successive posts.

That's a bit rich, your post #5270 said:
Quote:
I commented specifically on hydrogen. Would you like me to send you some Specsavers vouchers.

I've been responding to that statement ever since, now you say I'm trying to change the subject? Talk about goal posts on wheels, you have more moves than a Swiss watch.

I thought he might have at least found what NSW is planning as I think its incentivisations are very clever, aside from prioritising the Hunter and Illawarra regions as its hydrogen hubs, thereby mitigating coal industry job losses.
It is perplexing that a coalition-held State has worked out the necessary levers to drive a hydrogen future while its federal counterpart continues to look in the rear vision mirror.

Oh yes NSW and all their glossy pamphlets, just the same as Victoria has been printing, what's perplexing is that you don't hold yourself to the same standard of fact find, that you apply to others.
Wow what NSW is planning, you applaud rhetoric and criticise actual projects that are operating, shows the vitriol and bias. As I posted Victoria has been in the planning process for 5 years.

As I have asked on several occasions, please indicate the H2 projects these fabulously "green" States of Victoria and NSW are funding.
At least the Feds are funding H2 projects, so your baseless aspersions are not a true reflection of the reality, which isn't unusual.

Here are the links again to recent NSW and Victorian hydrogen initiatives, great reading plenty of pictures, no projects.

NSW Government action on climate change | AdaptNSW

The NSW Government is responding to climate change by helping businesses, households, communities and councils to adapt to climate change and reduce emissions.

climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au

2021

Renewable hydrogen

Renewable hydrogen offers potential as a clean, safe and reliable fuel source. Hydrogen production is becoming not only cleaner, but cheaper.

www.energy.vic.gov.au

 

[rederob]

That's a bit rich, your post #5270 said:
Quote:
I commented specifically on hydrogen. Would you like me to send you some Specsavers vouchers.

I've been responding to that statement ever since, now you say I'm trying to change the subject?

You contorted yourself to claim that funding equalled policies.
Please point to the federal government's specific policy on hydrogen, and not independent agency funding of proposals.

Both NSW and Victoria have detailed their hydrogen plans, clearly mapping out what they intend to achieve, and how.
The tragedy of the States going it alone is that it can lead to costly duplication of effort and integration failures. We should harmonise incentivisations so that States are not competing with each other to attract the necessary industries and attendant infrastructure to commercialise hydrogen.

 

[sptrawler]

You contorted yourself to claim that funding equalled policies.
Please point to the federal government's specific policy on hydrogen, and not independent agency funding of proposals.

Both NSW and Victoria have detailed their hydrogen plans, clearly mapping out what they intend to achieve, and how.
The tragedy of the States going it alone is that it can lead to costly duplication of effort and integration failures. We should harmonise incentivisations so that States are not competing with each other to attract the necessary industries and attendant infrastructure to commercialise hydrogen.

Of course funding equates to a form of policy, without the policy they wouldn't allocate the funding, it wouldn't be there.

You contort yourself to claim that a plan equates to action, when as I said Victoria committed to net zero by 2050 in 2016, yet are only now presenting a plan five years later.

As for NSW and Victoria presenting a plan, one would hope so, as between them they are probably by far the biggest emitters.
How they hope to mitigate that, should indeed be driven by them. As was shown in the pandemic, the Feds can say what they like, if the States don't like it they tell the Feds to butt out.

S.A has a very high renewables penetration, the Federal Government is helping fund a HV transmission interconnector between S.A and NSW, which will enable power sharing to enhance the effectiveness of the renewables.

The Federal Government is funding the building of Snowy 2.0 and co funding the Marinus HV link to Tasmania, which will enable the installation of much more solar and wind installations, as the storage will be there to absorb the extra generation. To infer they are not doing anything is erroneous.

I agree they have had trouble committing to a definitive net zero plan by 2050 and that could have been heavily influenced, by having to deal with the Nationals and their constituents.
It would have been far easier if as with Labor, most of their supporters lived in the inner City where the effects of the changes, will have minimal impact on their lives.

But I would rather see the coalition work their way through the issues and have a genuine commitment, than just give lip service as obviously others have a propensity to do.

Now it will be interesting to see what they propose and also what the opposition present, then both suggestions can be compared and judged.

 

[sptrawler]

W.A to get a $1billion hydrogen plant at Kwinana.

Split opinions over green credentials of Woodside's new Kwinana hydrogen hub

Gas giant Woodside says a $1 billion hydrogen and ammonia plant will set WA up as a global clean energy powerhouse, as the Conservation Council of WA questions the project's green credentials.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
Oil and gas giant Woodside has announced plans to build a hydrogen and ammonia production hub on government land south of Perth, sparking debate over the project's green credentials.
While the company and WA Premier Mark McGowan said the $1 billion project, dubbed H2Perth, would position WA as a global clean energy powerhouse, the facility was not going to be entirely 'green'.

Mr McGowan said the facility would be built on about 130 hectares of vacant industrial land, commercially leased from the state government.
Woodside CEO Meg O'Neill said the phased development would, at full potential, produce up to 1500 tonnes of hydrogen per day for export in the form of ammonia and liquid hydrogen.
"The land being leased from the state government in the Kwinana and Rockingham areas is ideally located close to existing gas, power, water and port infrastructure, as well as a skilled local residential workforce," Ms O'Neill said.

"H2Perth is designed to be net-zero emissions for both Woodside and its customers, supporting Woodside's corporate emissions reduction targets and the Paris Agreement goals of customers in the region."

The first phase of the project would produce mostly "blue" hydrogen and around a third "green".

Blue hydrogen is still produced using fossil fuels but the carbon dioxide is captured and stored or offset, while green hydrogen is produced from electrolysis powered by renewable energy.
In this case the hydrogen will be produced from natural gas and Woodside says 100 per cent of the project's carbon emissions would be abated or offset.

The project is partly considered green because it would use electricity generated by renewable energy through the South West Interconnected System, which includes rooftop solar power.
"H2Perth will also facilitate substantial growth of renewables in Western Australia by providing to the grid a flexible and stabilising load that benefits uptake of intermittent renewable electricity by households and local industry," Ms O'Neill said.

Conservation Council of WA (CCWA) Policy and Legal Director Piers Verstegen said the project fell short as it would use gas, which is a fossil fuel.

Grattan Institute energy and climate director Tony Wood said there was nothing wrong with Woodside's staged approach to producing green hydrogen.

He said while the company was starting out using fossil fuel, its plans were to transition to greener hydrogen over time which made sense given the cost of producing green hydrogen was currently much higher.

"One answer is to start with hydrogen being manufactured from a fossil fuel, in this case natural gas, then put in place all of the other parts of the supply chain," he said.

"And then, if and when the cost of making hydrogen from renewable energy comes down, you simply replace that part of the supply chain.

WA Hydrogen Industry Minister Alannah MacTiernan said the state had more than 30 hydrogen project proposals on the table.

"It is fantastic to see a major Western Australian company like Woodside investing in hydrogen here in WA," she said.

 

[mullokintyre]

W.A to get a $1billion hydrogen plant at Kwinana.

Split opinions over green credentials of Woodside's new Kwinana hydrogen hub

Gas giant Woodside says a $1 billion hydrogen and ammonia plant will set WA up as a global clean energy powerhouse, as the Conservation Council of WA questions the project's green credentials.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
Oil and gas giant Woodside has announced plans to build a hydrogen and ammonia production hub on government land south of Perth, sparking debate over the project's green credentials.
While the company and WA Premier Mark McGowan said the $1 billion project, dubbed H2Perth, would position WA as a global clean energy powerhouse, the facility was not going to be entirely 'green'.

Mr McGowan said the facility would be built on about 130 hectares of vacant industrial land, commercially leased from the state government.
Woodside CEO Meg O'Neill said the phased development would, at full potential, produce up to 1500 tonnes of hydrogen per day for export in the form of ammonia and liquid hydrogen.
"The land being leased from the state government in the Kwinana and Rockingham areas is ideally located close to existing gas, power, water and port infrastructure, as well as a skilled local residential workforce," Ms O'Neill said.

"H2Perth is designed to be net-zero emissions for both Woodside and its customers, supporting Woodside's corporate emissions reduction targets and the Paris Agreement goals of customers in the region."

The first phase of the project would produce mostly "blue" hydrogen and around a third "green".

Blue hydrogen is still produced using fossil fuels but the carbon dioxide is captured and stored or offset, while green hydrogen is produced from electrolysis powered by renewable energy.
In this case the hydrogen will be produced from natural gas and Woodside says 100 per cent of the project's carbon emissions would be abated or offset.

The project is partly considered green because it would use electricity generated by renewable energy through the South West Interconnected System, which includes rooftop solar power.
"H2Perth will also facilitate substantial growth of renewables in Western Australia by providing to the grid a flexible and stabilising load that benefits uptake of intermittent renewable electricity by households and local industry," Ms O'Neill said.

Conservation Council of WA (CCWA) Policy and Legal Director Piers Verstegen said the project fell short as it would use gas, which is a fossil fuel.

Grattan Institute energy and climate director Tony Wood said there was nothing wrong with Woodside's staged approach to producing green hydrogen.

He said while the company was starting out using fossil fuel, its plans were to transition to greener hydrogen over time which made sense given the cost of producing green hydrogen was currently much higher.

"One answer is to start with hydrogen being manufactured from a fossil fuel, in this case natural gas, then put in place all of the other parts of the supply chain," he said.

"And then, if and when the cost of making hydrogen from renewable energy comes down, you simply replace that part of the supply chain.

WA Hydrogen Industry Minister Alannah MacTiernan said the state had more than 30 hydrogen project proposals on the table.

"It is fantastic to see a major Western Australian company like Woodside investing in hydrogen here in WA," she said.

Once again, I must be missing something here. "Blue Hydrogen is produced from natural gas" , which as we know produces Co2 as a byproduct. Woodside says 100% of the carbon emissions would rebated or offset.
Just how do they plan to do that, buy credits from tree planting? Buy carbon certificates from dodgy European or Asian countries?
It becomes another pea and thimble trick that still ends up producing Co2.
Why not go straight to producing green hydrogen or ammonia?
There are lots of place to fill with solar panels or wind farms.
or what about reviving some those government funded wave generators that previous WA govt folks put money into.
The answer of course is that woodside has put a lot of development money into gas fields, and wants to recoup some of that before switching to green hydrogen.
Sounds like another con job to me.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Once again, I must be missing something here. "Blue Hydrogen is produced from natural gas" , which as we know produces Co2 as a byproduct. Woodside says 100% of the carbon emissions would rebated or offset.
Just how do they plan to do that, buy credits from tree planting? Buy carbon certificates from dodgy European or Asian countries?
It becomes another pea and thimble trick that still ends up producing Co2.
Why not go straight to producing green hydrogen or ammonia?
There are lots of place to fill with solar panels or wind farms.
or what about reviving some those government funded wave generators that previous WA govt folks put money into.
The answer of course is that woodside has put a lot of development money into gas fields, and wants to recoup some of that before switching to green hydrogen.
Sounds like another con job to me.
Mick

The part I like about it is, it may well lead to W.A having a hydrogen fuel supply chain, which may enable W.A people to have a choice between BEV's and fuel cell vehicle's.

 

[rederob]

Today in order to achieve net zero by 2050 the PM announced his policies on

• hydrogen
• renewables
• energy.

Today in order to achieve net zero by 2050 the PM announced his legislation package.

Today in order to achieve net zero by 2050 the PM presented his detailed plan.

Today in order to achieve net zero by 2050 the PM announced what he would not be doing.

 

[sptrawler]

Today in order to achieve net zero by 2050 the PM announced what he would not be doing.

He will be doing exactly as Albo is doing, waiting until nearer the election, before laying out his plan.
Which as Rumpy says makes sense.

 

[rederob]

He will be doing exactly as Albo is doing, waiting until nearer the election, before laying out his plan.
Which as Rumpy says makes sense.

Albo is not the PM and doesn't get to make decisions on what should be done.
8 years on and the Coalition remains clueless.

 

[SirRumpole]

Albo is not the PM and doesn't get to make decisions on what should be done.
8 years on and the Coalition remains clueless.

Yep, the government is there to govern. With power comes responsibility not sitting on your hands waiting for an election.

I have a feeling he may go before the end of the year, before this non policy sinks in to the electorate.

 

[sptrawler]

Albo is not the PM and doesn't get to make decisions on what should be done.
8 years on and the Coalition remains clueless.

Yep, the government is there to govern. With power comes responsibility not sitting on your hands waiting for an election.

I have a feeling he may go before the end of the year, before this non policy sinks in to the electorate.

It certainly seems as though it is gearing up to an election, I don't think it will be a close election, my feeling is Albo will romp it in.
Way too many skeletons in the cupboard for Morrison and Albo has up until now kept right out of the picture, that IMO is the only unknown he doesn't have a lot of time to get a message across.
So he will be hoping the Coalitions negative sentiment, overrides the nervousness of voting for the unknown, it should be interesting.

The other thing of course, will be Labor will come out swinging regarding climate change and may well disenfranchise their blue collar base more, but that will strengthen their inner city following. So it may end up following a similar pattern to the last election if Albo over reaches, time will tell.

 

[SirRumpole]

It certainly seems as though it is gearing up to an election, I don't think it will be a close election, my feeling is Albo will romp it in.
Way too many skeletons in the cupboard for Morrison and Albo has up until now kept right out of the picture, that IMO is the only unknown he doesn't have a lot of time to get a message across.
So he will be hoping the Coalitions negative sentiment, overrides the nervousness of voting for the unknown, it should be interesting.

Very interesting indeed.

I expect Clive Palmer to come in from outside with a big scare campaign about net zero putting up fuel and power prices.

That could be pretty telling.

One thing that that the Nats were right about, we need to know not just what net zero means, but how we are going to get there and how much it will cost. Now that Morrison has nailed his pants to the wall, the Party that explains it's policy the best should win.

 

[sptrawler]

One thing that that the Nats were right about, we need to know not just what net zero means, but how we are going to get there and how much it will cost. Now that Morrison has nailed his pants to the wall, the Party that explains it's policy the best should win.

Nailed it right there.
The posturing is over, they are all on the same page, those who have the best plan win the game.
The whole election is now on what you pointed out Rumpy, it will be interesting to see what both major parties have been working on over the past three years, as I think their tactician's would have known it would come to this.
So I guess the campaign starts, when Scott from marketing, gets to Glasgow.
I still think Albo will win , because of the Porter issue, the bad press in the early stages of the vaccine roll out etc, but that issue will have waned a bit by now, so a lot will also ride on the current issue "2050".
What the last election showed is that Scomo can sell himself, I mean Shorten had already ordered the new carpet for the lodge and look how that worked out.

 

[Smurf1976]

I expect Clive Palmer to come in from outside with a big scare campaign

It's already rolling.

Coming to a billboard, TV, newspaper, radio or computer near you real soon.

Slogan being used is "Zero Emissions, Zero Jobs, Zero Future" and it's worded so as to directly attack the Nationals.

 

[SirRumpole]

Coming to a billboard, TV, newspaper, radio or computer near you real soon.

Not to mention my mobile that he managed to get the number of. Unless it was just a lucky hit.