The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

WA's not as badly off as you might think there.

Quite a few pumped hydro sites have been identified, being concentrated in 3 main parts of the state.

One lot is right up north. The broad area north of Broome basically and that also continues on the NT side of the border as well.

Second lot is in the Pilbara in an area that broadly aligns with the present NWIS. So they're broadly south of Dampier and Port Hedland and close enough to present mining and industrial operations to be potentially useful.

The third lot is roughly in a line stretching about 250km and within commuting distance of Bunbury and Perth. That has attraction obviously.

A lot of those wouldn't be viable for practical or economic reasons but I'd be surprised if something couldn't be found out of all that which stacks up.

This is the major issue with dams and super sized solar farms in W.A @Smurf1976

Sacred dam plan linked to Andrew Forrest latest to fall under scrutiny

Amid a growing backlash over the destruction of Aboriginal heritage sites, a proposal for the Ashburton River in Western Australia's Pilbara region linked to billionaire Andrew Forrest is the latest to come under scrutiny.

www.abc.net.au

Will WA Labor's plan for the Fitzroy River hold water and win votes?

In the lead up to the WA state election, how do candidates in the Kimberley feel about dams and irrigation projects?

www.abc.net.au

Red tape or native title? Forrest, WA minister at odds over hydrogen project decision

A war of words has broken out between Andrew Forrest and the WA Government over why the state's missing out on his hydrogen cash splash.

www.abc.net.au

 

[basilio]

How to move investment and the workforce from fossil fuels to green hydrogen in Port Kembla.

Hydrogen investment to create 'level playing field' with fossil fuels says gas producer

Australia's largest producer of hydrogen claims the NSW investment in the sector will make producing hydrogen using renewable sources just as cost-effective as using fossil fuels.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

How to move investment and the workforce from fossil fuels to green hydrogen in Port Kembla.

Hydrogen investment to create 'level playing field' with fossil fuels says gas producer

Australia's largest producer of hydrogen claims the NSW investment in the sector will make producing hydrogen using renewable sources just as cost-effective as using fossil fuels.

www.abc.net.au

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing some of these companies, like coregas, do something to mitigate their carbon footprint other than talk up a storm.
They have been in business for a long time, making hydrogen from natural gas and their parent company isn't short of a quid, so why haven't they invested in some renewables in their process already?

 

[basilio]

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing some of these companies, like coregas, do something to mitigate their carbon footprint other than talk up a storm.
They have been in business for a long time, making hydrogen from natural gas and their parent company isn't short of a quid, so why haven't they invested in some renewables in their process already?

Really good question isn't it ? I think Twiggy has a far bigger vision for the hydrogen economy than any single company. I think he also recognises how dangerous/challenging CC is and can see a huge opportunity to make a world of difference and make another fortune.

On top of that he has a very wealthy vehicle with the technical experience to make this happen. And on top of that, this company (FMG) will also add significantly to it's bottom line through the projects he develops. It is an exceptionally good win/win/win/win equation.

 

[basilio]

This is the major issue with dams and super sized solar farms in W.A @Smurf1976

Sacred dam plan linked to Andrew Forrest latest to fall under scrutiny

Amid a growing backlash over the destruction of Aboriginal heritage sites, a proposal for the Ashburton River in Western Australia's Pilbara region linked to billionaire Andrew Forrest is the latest to come under scrutiny.

www.abc.net.au

Will WA Labor's plan for the Fitzroy River hold water and win votes?

In the lead up to the WA state election, how do candidates in the Kimberley feel about dams and irrigation projects?

www.abc.net.au

Red tape or native title? Forrest, WA minister at odds over hydrogen project decision

A war of words has broken out between Andrew Forrest and the WA Government over why the state's missing out on his hydrogen cash splash.

www.abc.net.au

There is much to work through isn't there ? I think one way or another this will happen. But we'll see how it all works..

 

[sptrawler]

Really good question isn't it ? I think Twiggy has a far bigger vision for the hydrogen economy than any single company. I think he also recognises how dangerous/challenging CC is and can see a huge opportunity to make a world of difference and make another fortune.

On top of that he has a very wealthy vehicle with the technical experience to make this happen. And on top of that, this company (FMG) will also add significantly to it's bottom line through the projects he develops. It is an exceptionally good win/win/win/win equation.

You do realise Coregas is a subsidiary of Wesfarmers, don't you.

 

[basilio]

You do realise Coregas is a subsidiary of Wesfarmers, don't you.

Yeah. So essentially it is huge conglomerate of many business activities. Each one is making a buck inside it's own business model. There are corporate efforts to reduce carbon footprints but frankly none of these is seen as actually adding to the business itself.

The point about Twiggys approach is that "The business is about massively reducing carbon emissions" . The major objective is creating clean energy at a competitive price. Without that goal in mind Wesfarmers, The Banks whoever else will naturally focus on their profit centres. So what does that mean in practice ?

Many years ago (early 90's) I was an Energy Auditor for small and medium businesses. I analysed energy bills, reviewed operational procedures and examined equipment. I was looking for cost effective ways to reduce costs, improve operating procedures and save/make money.

I found many cost effective opportunities to reduce energy costs and make money. The payback period for most of my recommendations were 8 months to 3 years. Some recommendations involved equipment upgrades would make a big difference to operational practices but sometimes had a longer payback.

But in the end it was all a bit sad. When I identified a significant savings by changing Power Tariffs (there only the SEC then) they were on it like a flash. But when it came to any other recommendations - more efficient motors, upgrading lighting, reviewing refrigeration items - Nuh. Essentially despite an excellent Rate of Return they saw more bucks in other areas particularly marketing or just cutting a wage.

The current moves to solar panels on supermarkets etc offers a very good ROI. Added to the social impact of the move and cheap financing- in many cases off the balance sheet - it's easy to see why companies are going down that path

 

[rederob]

An issue here is that as with anything, if you ask a salesman then they'll almost certainly recommend you buy what they're selling. No surprises there.

In the Australian context well the big energy companies with a heritage and ongoing operations in gas supply have a very good reason to push the continued use of gas and for gas-fired generation to be the backup to renewables.

Unsurprisingly the established hydro operators will argue that large scale pumped storage is the way forward and that they ought to build it.

And of course if we ask a battery manufacturer well yep, no prizes for guessing what they suggest.

Same with anything. Ask an airline how to move some freight and I'll guarantee that whatever they come up with will involve it being put on an aircraft. They're not going to suggest trains or ships. Etc same with anyone.

That also extends to states and countries. Pick any place that has either a natural advantage or an established major industry focused on one technology and no surprise they'll advocate it as the solution.

The landscape has changed.
"Disrupters" rule, ok!

Blackberry and Nokia had mobile phone market dominance in their sectors and assumed their size/product was too good to fail. They were wrong!

Musk began Tesla as a niche product, saw the cards falling his way, and gambled on an electric vehicle market in defiance of conventional wisdom. He correctly saw the writing on the wall, and works hard staying ahead of the game.

It's not about what someone is selling nowadays. In the energy market businesses have worked out that entry costs are no longer an inhibiter, and that without there being an ongoing raw material cost (coal, gas, etc.) capital costs are quickly amortised and profits flow with relatively little effort and comparatively few employees.

In this environment hydrogen is a bit analogous to the Tesla. It was never cheap to begin with, but delivers in spades. Although most Teslas are not easily affordable, it has many competitors with significantly less expensive offerings. And EV models are getting cheaper as time passes.

Twiggy has decided to go with a solution that he's sold to himself - as Musk has done time and again.
The days of self-serving vested interests garnering public or political favour are gone.

 

[Smurf1976]

The days of self-serving vested interests garnering public or political favour are gone

Agree with the rest but on that bit I'm not seeing it.

Right now in Australia we're still doing things, or someone is actively lobbying to do / not do them, that really only make sense in the context of keeping some vested interest happy either business or political.

That's not to say it's all like that but it's definitely going on. Some is extremely blatant, some is far better disguised.

 

[rederob]

Agree with the rest but on that bit I'm not seeing it.

Right now in Australia we're still doing things, or someone is actively lobbying to do / not do them, that really only make sense in the context of keeping some vested interest happy either business or political.

That's not to say it's all like that but it's definitely going on. Some is extremely blatant, some is far better disguised.

Yes, the coal lobby has been powerful, and the gas lobby too, especially with their predominant advisory roles to government.
However, what has been happening under their (ie the powerful lobbyists') radar is renewables creep. Many of the entrants have seldom been heard of, such as Verve energy which built Australia's first grid scale solar plant at Walkaway in WA. Meanwhile Australia's biggest solar project, Limondale at Balranald, has been developed by Belectric. And who has heard of Fotowatio Renewable Ventures?

My point is about who will become our new energy heroes, and why. Renewables are a business no brainer. The Twiggys of the world know that, and in a world needing to turn greener still coal and gas (to a lesser extent) are becoming dinosaurs.

 

[SirRumpole]

The days of self-serving vested interests garnering public or political favour are gone.

Dear oh dear. You haven't observed coalition climate or energy policy for the last 10 years or so ?

 

[rederob]

Dear oh dear. You haven't observed coalition climate or energy policy for the last 10 years or so ?

I think the Coalition is being driven by fossil fuel ideology and renewables latency at the federal level. NSW has been trying to run a fair game on energy policy for years. Queensland, which is only doing well due to its coal legacy, barely pays lip service to massive proposed developments that have been stagnant for years.
Federally the Coalition is still trying to delay the closure of major coal-fired power plants, but not because of a pandering to coal per se. Instead, it's their realisation that they have inadequate policies to ensure grid stability and prevent blackouts in coming years.
It is also the case that the fossil fuels jobs mantra is being shown as a fallacy.
Scomo is trying hard to avoid the perception of a backflip at COP26 and might win in the shorter term. However his lump of coal stunt will never been forgotten, just as we oldies remember Fraser losing his trousers.

 

[sptrawler]

Dear oh dear. You haven't observed coalition climate or energy policy for the last 10 years or so ?

Yes you guys are right on the button, they were told 10 years ago how to do it by the guru's, they are just not listening. 40GW of concentrated solar salt storage, it's simple why don't we just shut down everything and put it in. ?

Renewable Energy Focus | Journal | ScienceDirect.com by Elsevier

Read the latest articles of Renewable Energy Focus at ScienceDirect.com, Elsevier’s leading platform of peer-reviewed scholarly literature

www.renewableenergyfocus.com

But what happened to the biggest base load concentrated solar storage saviour to be built in S.A? While we sit in the dark waiting for it to take over, you blokes need a reality check.

The future of solar thermal power once promised so much, but has the shine worn off?

A decision to scrap a $650 million solar thermal energy project in South Australia has left lingering questions about the future of the technology.

www.abc.net.au

Hang on wave generation will save us in 2015:

World’s first grid-connected wave energy array switched on in Perth

Carnegie Wave Energy switches on Perth Wave Energy Project – the world’s first commercial wave energy array to feed energy to the grid.

reneweconomy.com.au

But no it won't in 2019

No wave farm, no power and no jobs — but not everyone has walked away a loser

The WA Government joins taxpayers and the town of Albany in a long line of losers from its failed wave energy deal with Carnegie Clean Energy — but senior company executives have not fared so poorly.

www.abc.net.au

Christ knows what sort of mess we would be in if we ran from pillar to post, following brain farts, rather than a structured change, but it doesn't give all the excitement and rah rah like little Kev did when telling everyone China will R#t F%^k them, at least he was right about something. ?
With a bit of luck, Labor will be in next year and we can be 100% renewables by 2030, all it needs is a $hit load of taxpayers money thrown at it, until it does work and Labor are great at that.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes you guys are right on the button, they were told 10 years ago how to do it by the guru's, they are just not listening. 40GW of concentrated solar salt storage, it's simple why don't we just shut down everything and put it in. ?

Renewable Energy Focus | Journal | ScienceDirect.com by Elsevier

Read the latest articles of Renewable Energy Focus at ScienceDirect.com, Elsevier’s leading platform of peer-reviewed scholarly literature

www.renewableenergyfocus.com

But what happened to the biggest base load concentrated solar storage saviour to be built in S.A? While we sit in the dark waiting for it to take over, you blokes need a reality check.

The future of solar thermal power once promised so much, but has the shine worn off?

A decision to scrap a $650 million solar thermal energy project in South Australia has left lingering questions about the future of the technology.

www.abc.net.au

Christ knows what sort of mess we would be in if we ran from pillar to post, following brain farts, rather than a structured change, but it doesn't give all the excitement and rah rah like little Kev did when telling everyone China will R#t F%^k them, at least he was right about something. ?
With a bit of luck, Labor will be in next year and we can be 100% renewables by 2030, all it needs is a $hit load of taxpayers money thrown at it, until it does work and Labor are great at that.

Well the reality is the the Feds have basically sat on their hands on everything, except Snowy Hydro which was that devil Turnbull's brainchild and may yet turn out to be the smartest thing he ever did.

With a bit of luck, Labor will be in next year and we can be 100% renewables by 2030, all it needs is a $hit load of taxpayers money thrown at it, until it does work and Labor are great at that

A $shitload of taxpayers money was thrown at the Snowy Mountains scheme by another Labor devil called Chifley, was that wasted ?

 

[SirRumpole]

Well the reality is the the Feds have basically sat on their hands on everything, except Snowy Hydro which was that devil Turnbull's brainchild and may yet turn out to be the smartest thing he ever did.

With a bit of luck, Labor will be in next year and we can be 100% renewables by 2030, all it needs is a $hit load of taxpayers money thrown at it, until it does work and Labor are great at that

A $shitload of taxpayers money was thrown at the Snowy Mountains scheme by another Labor devil called Chifley, was that wasted ?

BTW I agree with their gas plans, but even that is a stop gap until bigger hydro plants can be built.

I wouldn't even disagree with nuclear as long as someone pulls their finger out and sets a reasonable target.

 

[sptrawler]

Well the reality is the the Feds have basically sat on their hands on everything, except Snowy Hydro which was that devil Turnbull's brainchild and may yet turn out to be the smartest thing he ever did.

With a bit of luck, Labor will be in next year and we can be 100% renewables by 2030, all it needs is a $hit load of taxpayers money thrown at it, until it does work and Labor are great at that

A $shitload of taxpayers money was thrown at the Snowy Mountains scheme by another Labor devil called Chifley, was that wasted ?

The reality is, the Feds are not throwing taxpayers money, when the private sector are already throwing as much at the issue as the grid can handle, just because we aren't wasting it doesn't mean we aren't doing anything. That is just illogical thinking.
The Feds are funding the HV transmission re configuration, to accept more renewables in the NW of Vic and the SW of NSW, ARENA is funding renewable ideas on all fronts, not just power generation, but I guess I'm one of the people that would rather see things done in a sensible structured manner, than doing it on the front page of the Guardian and SMH.
When Labor get in the transition will be run like a Hollywood production in the media, until the stuff ups start, then it will slide to the back pages IMO.

By the way I doubt Turnbull came into work one day, called everyone around and said "hold up, I've got an idea", nice to think that of him but personally I doubt it. ?

Projects - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA)

ARENA supports projects that advance renewable energy technologies from early stage research in the lab, to later stage demonstration projects in the field.

arena.gov.au

 

[SirRumpole]

Australian Renewable Energy Agency Act 2011​

That would have been when Labor was in wouldn't it ? (don't say that too loudly).

 

[sptrawler]

A good article on the state of play with the Nationals, re the zero emissions.

Hon. Barnaby Joyce MP. Interview with Michael Rowland, ABC News Breakfast Monday, 18 October 2021

Interview with Michael Rowland, ABC News BreakfastMonday, 18 October 2021TOPICS: Net zeroEO&E…MICHAEL ROWLAND: The Prime Minister may now be heading

www.miragenews.com

 

[basilio]

This is exceptional story of how to pull together rooftop PVs. Incorporates important technical aspects of smoothing power generation and financial structuring that resolves owner vs renter problems.

The weekend read: Powerful equation to expand C&I solar

Big rooftop PV systems on factories, warehouses and public buildings need not be limited by ownership issues nor local grid capacity, claims Australian innovator EleXsys Energy. The company is maxing out an Ikea in Adelaide, Australia, with solar and storage. And it claims its smart technology...

www.pv-magazine.com

 

[sptrawler]

Australian Renewable Energy Agency Act 2011​

That would have been when Labor was in wouldn't it ? (don't say that too loudly).

I've never said, they don't have good ideas, it is the implementation they stuff up, we would already be stuffed as the only country in the world shutting itself down with a carbon tax which was introduced back then.
Instead of just waiting and fitting in with the world, as a universal carbon tax, is just around the corner.
But the narrative always sounds better, when you don't include the reality.