The future of energy generation and storage

Smurf1976 · 20 September 2021

sptrawler said:
Here is an article on Australian solar panel production and how it was lost to China, which I bring up when people say it is only one side of politics that screws up. The biggest solar panel manufacturing plant in the Southern hemisphere, was in Sydney and was shut down in 2009 on a vocal supporter of climate change's watch.

Politically it's a reality that both major parties and various others championed the demise of manufacturing and in doing so entrenched Australia's economic reliance on fossil fuel exports.

Can't undo what's done but how to reverse it is the problem - it's going to take a generation and a lot of sacrifice in every way but there's really not much alternative.

sptrawler said:
By the way another issue I have mentioned, is highlighted in the article a computer picture rendition of the proposed solar farm in the N.T,

I wouldn't be too worried about land, we're not short on the stuff.

So long as the solar panels are placed sensibly, that is they are put on land that's of no real use for anything else, well there's plenty of that and not much being lost by putting it to that use.

If it was up to me though I'd leverage it.

If other countries want to obtain electricity from Australian land then sure, we can do that no problems. It'll be using 100% Australian manufactured solar panels and associated equipment however, that bit's absolutely non-negotiable. The frames they're on will be made in Australia, from Australian refined metals, and so will be the cables.

Trouble with our politicians is they sell out too easily. "Level playing field" - that's something that exists only in the imagination of a certain former PM. In reality there is not and was never any such thing - every country cheats one way or another when it comes to trade and we need to play the game.

Well, we do unless we're really, really confident that we can forever keep selling coal and iron....

sptrawler · 20 September 2021

Smurf1976 said:
I wouldn't be too worried about land, we're not short on the stuff.

So long as the solar panels are placed sensibly, that is they are put on land that's of no real use for anything else, well there's plenty of that and not much being lost by putting it to that use.

Mate it isn't an issue for me, I'm definitely a roundup, red meat, beer drinking individual. I just showed the photo to the other half and she freaked, to put that in context she is much, more green than me but in no way an activist.
So when these mega solar farms and bulk storage dams start unfolding, I'm sure we will have another Franklin river debacle on our hands, you thinking it is o.k to place them on land that is of no real use for anything else, is a novel thought.
How many serpents, sacred sites, three legged horn toads and four legged butterflies live there, is the real issue?

Smurf1976 · 20 September 2021

sptrawler said:
So when these mega solar farms and bulk storage dams start unfolding, I'm sure we will have another Franklin river debacle on our hands, you thinking it is o.k to place them on land that is of no real use for anything else, is a novel thought.

Rationally the land is of no real value for anything, it's desert in the middle of nowhere. Shading a portion of it seems unlikely to do any real harm unless someone can prove otherwise.

In practice though you're closer to hitting the nail on the head than you probably realise.

The exact words which get thrown around among those in suits are ".....risk of a Franklin Dam style protest....." and for the record that goes for anything, not necessarily things involving any actual dam.

Once someone senior enough concludes the risk of that scenario is credible, it tips the risk / reward balance and kills the project stone dead usually. It's an issue that has come up with some storage projects - the risk not that there's an actual problem but that someone starts a campaign against it. Since the economics are borderline anyway, there's no great fortune to be made, that risk tips the balance against proceeding any further.

Meanwhile in SA we do have an LNG import terminal being progressed....

Legitimate conservation I'm strongly in favour of, and FWIW if given the chance I wouldn't choose to flood the Franklin (and yes I've been there and seen it with my own eyes) but overall the "no dams anywhere near anyone" approach, or the equivalent for other forms of development, simply ensures that fossil fuels are what gets used.

A sensible science-based approach to land use is required if all this is to be resolved and we're to go fully renewable.

Science-based meaning actual science, not silly game playing but actual proper science. Some areas ought be protected, others really are worthless.

sptrawler · 20 September 2021

Smurf1976 said:
In practice though you're closer to hitting the nail on the head than you probably realise.

I'll take that as an insult, but wont take offence.
I have always said this will be the biggest bugbear of renewables, once the salt water gets pumped into the Flinders ranges, once a dam is placed anywhere near a place that people can see, it will cause a backlash.
I was the one that said James Price point gas hub was a no brainer.

Smurf1976 · 21 September 2021

sptrawler said:
I'll take that as an insult

Not intended as one.....

I've just always assumed that most would have no idea how that dam haunts many things even today. Not the actual dam that wasn't built but the notion of a similar sort of campaign against some unrelated project.

Business seems to find the idea of floating LNG barges far more attractive in practice.

sptrawler · 21 September 2021

sptrawler said:
I'll take that as an insult, but wont take offence.
I have always said this will be the biggest bugbear of renewables, once the salt water gets pumped into the Flinders ranges, once a dam is placed anywhere near a place that people can see, it will cause a backlash.
I was the one that said James Price point gas hub was a no brainer.

On the issue of James price point, that was going to process LNG onshore, but was stopped because it apparently contravened native land.

Yet would have covered probably 5sq/klm and it would have enabled a massive employment hub and enabled pumping water from the Ord down for irrigation down through the NW of W.A.
Now we are talking about covering 300Sq/ Klm with a solar farm to export hydrogen, go figure.

sptrawler · 21 September 2021

Smurf1976 said:
Not intended as one.....

Never take offence from you smurf, been around the traps too long, to know who is vindictive and who isn't. ?
I'm really pragmatic on this whole issue, I would love to see Australia running 100% renewables and it looks like we will.
The only speed bump IMO, is people wanting to push it faster than the system can cope with it.

Smurf1976 · 21 September 2021

On the subject of LNG barges.

This one's not in any way secret so I'll post the Google map showing location:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com.au

Existing Pelican Point power station in the middle. The plant consists of 2 x 160 MW gas turbines and associated 160 MW steam turbine (nominal values) and is gas-fired only. It operates intermittently according to requirements.

There's a plan to permanently dock a floating LNG barge to the immediate left of the existing power station, and to put some open cycle gas turbines (to be known as Snapper Point Power Station) to the immediate right.

That's all privately funded, not government.

Since the LNG barge is floating and likely to be built overseas, it can be relocated pretty easily if it becomes redundant at some future time. OCGT's are of course also very relocatable, indeed they're presently installed elsewhere in Adelaide at the former Holden factory and fired with diesel (being 5 of the 9 units the previous SA government obtained).

mullokintyre · 21 September 2021

An Australian team have set the record for most efficient solar cell yet produced.
FromABC News

Solar start-up engineer Vince Allen knew he and his team had made something special in their laboratories.

Key points:

An Australian solar company has created the world's most efficient commercial-sized solar cell

The company uses copper instead of silver to manufacture their solar cells because it is cheaper and more abundant

Sundrive chief executive Vince Allen says the certified record puts Australia back at the forefront of solar cell manufacturing

Now they have the certification to say they have created the most efficient commercial-sized solar cell in the world.

In the solar world, efficiency is a big deal.

"The fundamental driving factors behind solar adoption come down to efficiency and cost," Mr Allen said.

"Being able to fabricate the most efficient commercial-sized solar cell is an achievement we're very proud of, and to push Australian solar PV [photovoltaic] on a global stage."
Put simply, efficiency is measured by the amount of power you generate based on the amount of sunlight coming in.

Ten years ago, commercial-sized solar cells had an efficiency rating of about 14 to 16 per cent.

Mr Allen's company Sundrive has created a cell with 25.54 per cent efficiency, as tested by the Institute For Solar Energy Research Hamlin in Germany – a company that specialises in efficiency testing.

"Prior to that, the record was 25.26 per cent, so we've done a reasonably big jump," he said.

While not exactly world shattering to beat the previous record by 0.28%, I guess its something to hang your hat on.
The unfortunate part for me was the use of copper rather than silver to in the manufacturing process.
Yes its cheaper, but I was relying on the use of industrial silver to eventually push the price up,
Mick

Smurf1976 · 22 September 2021

The situation in the UK seems to be deteriorating alarmingly rapidly:

......has raised the spectre of Britain rationing energy and being forced to impose a three-day working week.

Energy crisis raises spectre of UK three-day working week | The National

Industry leaders hold urgent talks with UK government

www.thenationalnews.com

As background, basic causes (in order of occurrence):

The unplanned permanent closure of Dungeness B power station (nuclear). In short, the facility had previously been shut down for a considerable period for inspection and associated maintenance works but on 7 June 2021 owners EDF announced that the plant would immediately move to permanent decommissioning.

Noting there that physical production of electricity at the site was zero at the time of the announcement. That is, it had already ceased operating in practice.

In short, serious problems were found.....

Generating capacity at Dungeness B was 1320 MW (2 x 660 MW).

Sustained lower wind speed has reduced production from wind farms across the UK as a whole.

The IFA interconnector (France – UK) was knocked out by a fire onshore (UK side) last week and remains out of service until further notice (I don't have much info on it but there are suggestions it'll be a 6 month repair job). Capacity is 2000 MW.

All of the above have a common element in that the solution to keep the lights on is to increase the use of, in practice, mostly gas-fired generation. That's the practical reality when wind / solar, biomass and nuclear is fully utilised anyway (so can't increase production from existing facilities) and there's not much hydro storage to draw down on. That leaves gas and the limited remaining coal and oil plant to fill the gap left by outages of anything else.

Now add in some outages of gas production.....

SirRumpole · 22 September 2021

Smurf1976 said:
The situation in the UK seems to be deteriorating alarmingly rapidly:

Energy crisis raises spectre of UK three-day working week | The National

Industry leaders hold urgent talks with UK government

www.thenationalnews.com

As background, basic causes (in order of occurrence):

The unplanned permanent closure of Dungeness B power station (nuclear). In short, the facility had previously been shut down for a considerable period for inspection and associated maintenance works but on 7 June 2021 owners EDF announced that the plant would immediately move to permanent decommissioning.

Noting there that physical production of electricity at the site was zero at the time of the announcement. That is, it had already ceased operating in practice.

In short, serious problems were found.....

Generating capacity at Dungeness B was 1320 MW (2 x 660 MW).

Sustained lower wind speed has reduced production from wind farms across the UK as a whole.

The IFA interconnector (France – UK) was knocked out by a fire onshore (UK side) last week and remains out of service until further notice (I don't have much info on it but there are suggestions it'll be a 6 month repair job). Capacity is 2000 MW.

All of the above have a common element in that the solution to keep the lights on is to increase the use of, in practice, mostly gas-fired generation. That's the practical reality when wind / solar, biomass and nuclear is fully utilised anyway (so can't increase production from existing facilities) and there's not much hydro storage to draw down on. That leaves gas and the limited remaining coal and oil plant to fill the gap left by outages of anything else.

Now add in some outages of gas production.....

Re solar panels in the desert, better watch out for Aboriginal sacred sites.

mullokintyre · 22 September 2021

They are gunna have to get a helluva lot of AA batteries to fix this problem.
Mick

sptrawler · 22 September 2021

China to stop funding coal generation in foreign countries, I guess that will leave them in the position of being the cheapest place to manufacture for time eternal.

Xi says China will not build new coal-fired power projects abroad

Xi provided no details in his announcement, but China has been under heavy diplomatic pressure to put an end to its coal financing overseas.

www.smh.com.au

mullokintyre · 22 September 2021

Probably mreans they are gunna shift the money earmarked for subsidising poor country's coal power stations to subsidising the rescue of Evergrande.
Mick

macca · 24 September 2021

Looking at all those panels and all that dust, whoever gets the cleaning contract will make a motza !

So many windy days in the desert, there will be days that they are virtually covered in dust, doesn't rain very often out there to wash them.

I have been in dust storms and the dust is unbelievable

basilio · 28 September 2021

This story on designing and building wooden wind turbines is eye opening. It use the Ikea model..
IMV well worth 10 minutes.

Wooden windmills are surely a relic from our pre industrial history aren't they? Well, that was certainly true until recently. Now though, a Swedish company has harnessed the inherent qualities of timber to produce a turbine tower that is not only lighter than its steel equivalent, but also stronger and more environmentally friendly too. Could this be the least likely technological revolution so far?

sptrawler · 29 September 2021

sptrawler said:
Mate it isn't an issue for me, I'm definitely a roundup, red meat, beer drinking individual. I just showed the photo to the other half and she freaked, to put that in context she is much, more green than me but in no way an activist.
So when these mega solar farms and bulk storage dams start unfolding, I'm sure we will have another Franklin river debacle on our hands, you thinking it is o.k to place them on land that is of no real use for anything else, is a novel thought.
How many serpents, sacred sites, three legged horn toads and four legged butterflies live there, is the real issue?

This kind of highlights the conflict that the politicians are going to face, with regard bulk storage dams for pumped hydro.
They can't raise the wall of an existing dam, because it will impact a World heritage site. Well the problem is there are only two options with dams, lots of small ones, or fewer large ones. One thing for sure they will affect something one way or another, as I said this will turn into one big mess IMO.

‘Important UNESCO obligations’: Minister refuses to declare Warragamba wall-raising critical

Rob Stokes has refused to declare the Warragamba Dam wall-raising a critical state project because it impacts a World Heritage area.

www.smh.com.au

basilio · 29 September 2021

sptrawler said:
This kind of highlights the conflict that the politicians are going to face, with regard bulk storage dams for pumped hydro.
They can't raise the wall of an existing dam, because it will impact a World heritage site. Well the problem is there are only two options with dams, lots of small ones, or fewer large ones. One thing for sure they will affect something one way or another, as I said this will turn into one big mess IMO.

‘Important UNESCO obligations’: Minister refuses to declare Warragamba wall-raising critical

Rob Stokes has refused to declare the Warragamba Dam wall-raising a critical state project because it impacts a World Heritage area.

www.smh.com.au

The idea of pumped hydro as n energy storage for excess solar/wind is important. One option that won't be environmentally ugly or prohibitively costly is the system developed by Rheenergise. There are plenty of small hills that would suit this option.

Engineering news

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

08 Feb 2021
Professional Engineering

Unlike conventional hydro power systems, the RheEnergise systems could operate across smaller elevation changes (Credit: RheEnergise)
Thousands of hillsides around the UK could host a new type of pumped-hydro energy storage system, its developers have claimed.

Unlike conventional hydro power, the system from RheEnergise uses dense liquid instead of water. The fluid is two-and-a-half-times denser than water, and could therefore potentially provide two-and-a-half-times the power of equivalent conventional systems.
The High-Density Hydro systems would be built underground. Its developers said it could offer long-term energy storage at relatively low costs, with high energy efficiency

Like conventional pumped hydro, it would use excess energy – such as that generated by wind turbines on a windy day with low demand – to pump the liquid uphill from underground storage tanks. After travelling uphill through underground pipes, the liquid would then be released to power downhill turbines when electricity demand is higher.

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

www.imeche.org

RheEnergise High-Density Hydro

RheEnergise Pumped Energy Storage: Lowering the levelised cost of energy storage. Increasing the availability of sites. Exceptionally fast reaction times. Long Duration. Long life. Highly flexible. High-Density Hydro®

www.rheenergise.com

sptrawler · 29 September 2021

basilio said:
The idea of pumped hydro as n energy storage for excess solar/wind is important. One option that won't be environmentally ugly or prohibitively costly is the system developed by Rheenergise. There are plenty of small hills that would suit this option.

Engineering news

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

08 Feb 2021
Professional Engineering
View attachment 130815
Unlike conventional hydro power systems, the RheEnergise systems could operate across smaller elevation changes (Credit: RheEnergise)
Thousands of hillsides around the UK could host a new type of pumped-hydro energy storage system, its developers have claimed.

Unlike conventional hydro power, the system from RheEnergise uses dense liquid instead of water. The fluid is two-and-a-half-times denser than water, and could therefore potentially provide two-and-a-half-times the power of equivalent conventional systems.
The High-Density Hydro systems would be built underground. Its developers said it could offer long-term energy storage at relatively low costs, with high energy efficiency

Like conventional pumped hydro, it would use excess energy – such as that generated by wind turbines on a windy day with low demand – to pump the liquid uphill from underground storage tanks. After travelling uphill through underground pipes, the liquid would then be released to power downhill turbines when electricity demand is higher.

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

www.imeche.org

RheEnergise High-Density Hydro

RheEnergise Pumped Energy Storage: Lowering the levelised cost of energy storage. Increasing the availability of sites. Exceptionally fast reaction times. Long Duration. Long life. Highly flexible. High-Density Hydro®

www.rheenergise.com

That sort of lateral thinking will have to be used, if we are ever going to get enough storage.

Knobby22 · 30 September 2021

macca said:
Looking at all those panels and all that dust, whoever gets the cleaning contract will make a motza !

So many windy days in the desert, there will be days that they are virtually covered in dust, doesn't rain very often out there to wash them.

I have been in dust storms and the dust is unbelievable

Surely there is an opportunity for someone, windscreen wiper system?
I should get off my bum and design something.

The future of energy generation and storage

Smurf1976

sptrawler

Smurf1976

sptrawler

Smurf1976

sptrawler

sptrawler

Smurf1976

Google Maps

mullokintyre

Key points:

Smurf1976

Energy crisis raises spectre of UK three-day working week | The National

SirRumpole

Energy crisis raises spectre of UK three-day working week | The National

mullokintyre

sptrawler

Xi says China will not build new coal-fired power projects abroad

mullokintyre

macca

basilio

sptrawler

‘Important UNESCO obligations’: Minister refuses to declare Warragamba wall-raising critical

basilio

‘Important UNESCO obligations’: Minister refuses to declare Warragamba wall-raising critical

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

RheEnergise High-Density Hydro

sptrawler

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

High-density pumped hydro ‘could be installed on thousands of small hills’

RheEnergise High-Density Hydro

Knobby22

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