The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

@SirRumpole china is in no way dependent on Australian coal, its reserves and annual domestic production is massive and dwarfs us
https://images.app.goo.gl/DoyxGB47z63cCzZ36
I am not a coal fanatic but i know the business

So why do they buy from us at all ?

 

[qldfrog]

Because they consume so much and our met coal, not thermal is of higher quality, please look at the link above:
https://images.app.goo.gl/DoyxGB47z63cCzZ36

 

[Smurf1976]

It's not unusual for seemingly odd imports and exports to occur.

The obvious example is Saudi Arabia importing oil.

In short they're selling reasonable quality crude oil, it's not the best around but it's OK, and buying some absolute crap with which to fire boilers in their power stations. All good, no problem, they're selling their good crude oil for just under $60 USD per barrel, the not so great but still reasonable stuff is about $57, and the stuff they're buying from others is about $45 per barrel at the moment. It burns, it fires the boilers, that's all it needs to do.

There was some imported black coal being sold as BBQ fuel in Australia a few years ago. Suffice to say that anyone who thinks that Victorian brown coal, the raw material for making Heat Beads, is in some way "dirty" (in a chemical sense it's actually one of the cleanest coals around by the way, only real problem is the high moisture content), would be in for a hell of a shock if they tried cooking over an open BBQ grill using this imported stuff. The fumes were rather sharp to say the least, presumably that's why it disappeared. My old neighbour bought some - used it once and gave the rest to me to use in the fire (for heating) simply to get rid of it.

Australia also imports LPG by the way despite being a net exporter of the stuff. Comes down to having some rather precise technical regulations that others don't have (and which are overkill in my view but anyway). End result is we export LPG and also import it from the same country we're selling much of it to.

 

[IFocus]

Portland Installs Turbines in City Water Pipes To Create Free Electricity

The city recently installed new municipal water pipes equipped with four 42-inch turbines that create electricity from the water passing through them.

Historyically, hydropower has been created by damming rivers and installing turbines inside the dams, which can be damaging to fish and the river itself.

Tap-water hydropower creates virtually no effect on wildlife, as it is simply harnessing the energy of water that’s already flowing through the pipes.


https://returntonow.net/2020/02/20/portland-installs-turbines-in-water-pipes-to-create-free-electricity/?fbclid=IwAR18NK2SXXKFiRo0ywXs7-sXYovX2V0kFQWOzOhbSbP2r-aCNeii8sRP4SM

 

[SirRumpole]

Rio Tinto gets behind renewable energy.

This should be a lesson that more companies are aware of and sensitive to their public image when it comes to energy use and are putting their money where their mouths are and making the switch.

Good on them.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-21/rio-tinto-goes-solar-for-new-mine/11983876

 

[Smurf1976]

The city recently installed new municipal water pipes equipped with four 42-inch turbines that create electricity from the water passing through them.

It's using a different technical approach but for the record Lofty Ranges Power, a 50/50 joint venture of SA Water and Hydro Tasmania, has been capturing energy from Adelaide's incoming water supply for quite some years now.

There's also some energy recovery from the brine discharge from the desal plant and via completely separate technology quite a few water authorities in Australia do recover some gas from sewage treatment plants which is used to run engines either for generating electricity or direct mechanical drive.

 

[sptrawler]

Rio Tinto gets behind renewable energy.

This should be a lesson that more companies are aware of and sensitive to their public image when it comes to energy use and are putting their money where their mouths are and making the switch.

Good on them.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-21/rio-tinto-goes-solar-for-new-mine/11983876

Yes, Fortescue mining and Alinta are also putting in large scale solar/battery at the Pilbara mining hub.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/alinta-...energy-costs-for-pilbara-mining-giants-36470/

https://www.pv-magazine-australia.c...tery-project-to-power-its-pilbara-operations/

 

[Smurf1976]

Rio Tinto gets behind renewable energy.

Rio Tinto has been on the receiving end of lobbying from the renewable energy industry for a long time now in regard to the idea of creating "green" commodity markets. That is, you'd have physically identical metal but priced differently according to the means of production. So two prices for the same commodity basically and an audit trail to ensure compliance.

To their credit, they never outright dismissed the idea and in more recent times have put it to limited application with some customers. So the customer has a negotiated deal, Rio Tinto as their sole supplier of metal, and there's an audit trail to confirm that it was produced in a "best practice" lower impact manner than would normally be the case. That doesn't mean 100% renewable energy, thus far things like ships are still going to be running on oil etc, but it does mean doing it far better than would normally be the case. eg still running trucks with diesel but the mill and refinery are run with mostly renewables. etc.

As for WA, well I'm told that at a mining industry conference in WA not too long ago people from the gas industry mocked the idea that renewables would have any impact in north-west WA. They've probably got that "stunned" look on their faces about now.....

 

[sptrawler]

A good article on the state of play, with regard renewables and the rquirement to strenghen the grid infrastructure.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-threatening-energy-grid-20200223-p543f3.html
From the article:

Networks must have more visibility of the security of their operations and flexible sources of supply and demand response when it may be quickly needed to maintain both frequency and voltage stability."

The Australian Energy Market Operator had to intervene to maintain system security 75 times in 2018-19 compared to 32 times the year before. Reliability was a particular concern during the height of summer in Victoria, NSW and South Australia.


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Total emissions across the national electricity market, which includes Queensland, NSW, ACT, Victoria, Tasmania and South Australia, had fallen 15 per cent since 2005.

There will be a further fall by 2030 under forecasts presented by the council, to 41 per cent below 2005 levels, following the expected closure of older coal and gas plants.
In January the government's leading energy security adviser Kerry Schott, who is chair of the Energy Security Board, said national leadership was needed on emissions as renewables put pressure on the grid. She called for more hydroelectricity, battery storage and gas.

The council expects the Snowy 2.0 project that will complete in the mid-2020s to help reliability in the long-term, as will funds provided by the government to the Clean Energy Finance Corporation.


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The report also found that retail prices were declining with affordability improvements largely due to more solar use and energy efficiency.

Energy Minister Angus Taylor said there were ongoing challenges for the sector when it came to maintaining the safety and reliability of electricity supply when wind and solar was not available, noting the report advocated for the development of hydrogen as a commercial industry.

"This recognises the significant opportunities presented by hydrogen," Mr Taylor said.

 

[SirRumpole]

A good article on the state of play, with regard renewables and the rquirement to strenghen the grid infrastructure.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-threatening-energy-grid-20200223-p543f3.html
From the article:

Networks must have more visibility of the security of their operations and flexible sources of supply and demand response when it may be quickly needed to maintain both frequency and voltage stability."

The Australian Energy Market Operator had to intervene to maintain system security 75 times in 2018-19 compared to 32 times the year before. Reliability was a particular concern during the height of summer in Victoria, NSW and South Australia.


Loading
Total emissions across the national electricity market, which includes Queensland, NSW, ACT, Victoria, Tasmania and South Australia, had fallen 15 per cent since 2005.

There will be a further fall by 2030 under forecasts presented by the council, to 41 per cent below 2005 levels, following the expected closure of older coal and gas plants.
In January the government's leading energy security adviser Kerry Schott, who is chair of the Energy Security Board, said national leadership was needed on emissions as renewables put pressure on the grid. She called for more hydroelectricity, battery storage and gas.

The council expects the Snowy 2.0 project that will complete in the mid-2020s to help reliability in the long-term, as will funds provided by the government to the Clean Energy Finance Corporation.


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The report also found that retail prices were declining with affordability improvements largely due to more solar use and energy efficiency.

Energy Minister Angus Taylor said there were ongoing challenges for the sector when it came to maintaining the safety and reliability of electricity supply when wind and solar was not available, noting the report advocated for the development of hydrogen as a commercial industry.

"This recognises the significant opportunities presented by hydrogen," Mr Taylor said.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think we are heading for disaster using an economic model (investment & profits) to determine the availability and price of an essential service.

So the "government picking winners" argument has been attacked in favour of a "leave it to the market" strategy which now doesn't seem to be working as the whole methodoloy is wrong; ie companies won't invest unless they get a profit, which results in higher prices for consumers.

To me the major private enterprise involvement should be rooftop solar where a lot of suppliers can compete for a big consumer market, but for major assets like say gas power stations it's difficult to see a lot of investors competing for that market as the costs are very high and will face increasing competition from rooftop solar and household batteries.

If baseload is determined to be necessary, then it should be government investment driving this, along with construction of the delivery system (poles and wires) , as in the long term this would seem to be a system that would be less used over time and therefore unattractive to private investment..

 

[sptrawler]

If baseload is determined to be necessary, then it should be government investment driving this, along with construction of the delivery system (poles and wires) , as in the long term this would seem to be a system that would be less used over time and therefore unattractive to private investment..

I, as I have said before, agree with you.
To me the big issue is, maintaining a solid reliable base load supply, until it is no longer required.
The problem with this is, the rate of return from the base load will drop and drop as the renewables get larger, this is what will make it completely uneconomical to run the base load and the private sector wont want to do it.
Add to that the fact, the base load units will get cycled more and more, as the renewables push them off the bars more regularly.
This in turn will increase the wear and tear on the units, increasing the maintenance cost, which will add to the poor return.
Then eventually it becomes a stranded asset, when it is no longer required at all, but until then it has to be 100% reliable.
There is no private generator, who is going to put there hands up for that, unless they get massive subsidies.
That is why, as I've said before, the Government should build a big Power Station, to be the generator of last resort because it will be the one that comes off first and goes on last, therefore makes the least money.
Then progressively have the private sector close their stations, until the Government one is the only one running, then close it down when it is no longer required. Or leave it on care and maintenance, just in case it is required in major system disturbances, like the bushfires where large areas of the sky can be affected by smoke therefore poor solar output.
Just my opinion.
By the way, that is the advantage the W.A system has over the Eastern States, there is only one privately operated coal fired major Power Station( Blue Waters). The other two major coal fired stations are both Government owned, so an orderly transition to gas/ renewables should be a fairly seamless transition. IMO
The only thing missing in the renewables debate at the moment, is common sense, way too much pizzing on things to mark territory.

 

[IFocus]

I
The only thing missing in the renewables debate at the moment, is common sense

Common sense = policy and plan

 

[rederob]

Here's what the Energy Security Board reported today.
The critical elements of energy security and reliability are not well covered.
Finkel reported on the emergent concerns of technical constraints on renewables over 3 years ago, yet here we are.
The answer to why there is little action to address Finkel's concerns lies squarely with the federal Minister who is simply incompetent and refuses to acknowledge what is necessary. He is not helped by the Coalition government which has as it's main platform that energy prices do not increase, yet also refuses to recognise that renewables are driving prices lower, not fossil fuels.
This is the blind being led by the blinded, while consumers suffer the prospect of the lights going out.

 

[sptrawler]

Common sense = policy and plan

Exactly what I'm talking about, echo chambers, with limited grey matter. I see you are in good company.

 

[rederob]

Exactly what I'm talking about, echo chambers, with limited grey matter. I see you are in good company.

The point is that the information needed to address these issues has been provided at Energy COAG over many years, so it's a matter of NOT DOING as distinct from any lack of grey matter or common sense.
What part of that don't you understand?

 

[sptrawler]

Common sense = policy and plan

Well we will see how a policy without a plan and no analysis goes shortly, hopefully Albo isn't shooting from the hip, common sense hasn't been a strong suite of Labor in recent history.
Time will tell.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-21/labor-to-announce-net-zero-carbon-emissions-2050/11986308
from the article:
While announcing the 2050 goal, Mr Albanese will not outline how Labor will achieve it, a move the party's climate change spokesman defended.
"There is a process of developing policy. You start with core principles, you then start talking to organisations like the [Business Council of Australia] and the so many other businesses and stakeholder groups about the details so that well before the election there is a detailed policy that we as the alternative government can put before the Australian people."
Labor was criticised at the last election for not being able to explain how much its climate policies would cost.

If it had won the election, the party planned to cut emissions by 45 per cent, based on 2005 levels, by 2030.

Mr Butler said more work was needed before the party settled on a 2030 target.

"We are going to have to take advice about what a proper, responsible, medium-term target to release in 2022 is going to be," he said.

Doesn't sound like policy or plan to me, sounds more like a passing of wind.

 

[SirRumpole]

Doesn't sound like policy or plan to me, sounds more like a passing of wind.

No point in producing a plan this far out from the election and have it sat on by the government, who have no plan themselves and apparently aren't going to provide one anytime soon.

That is the essential problem of course, it's all electioneering strategy. If parties actually formed a plan that they were confident in they would put it out asap and let the other side catch up. But no, it's all secretive "wait till the election" propaganda.

 

[sptrawler]

No point in producing a plan this far out from the election and have it sat on by the government, who have no plan themselves and apparently aren't going to provide one anytime soon.

That is the essential problem of course, it's all electioneering strategy. If parties actually formed a plan that they were confident in they would put it out asap and let the other side catch up. But no, it's all secretive "wait till the election" propaganda.

From what I have read and posted up, it sounds as though the Government is releasing a, 'electric car' plan by mid year, and a 'renewable roadmap' plan by years end.
Maybe that is why Albo has jumped in, to try and nullify anything the Government comes out with.
So IMO a lot is hanging on what comes out from the Government this year, if it isn't any good, I think they are toast.
But if it is a good and well thought out plan, it will be jumped on by the public, because I think everyone is getting fed up the rhetoric from both parties and the media.
Everyone just wants it to end. IMO

 

[Smurf1976]

Everyone just wants it to end.

Absolutely.

There are certainly some getting on with it behind the scenes however despite the nonsense. Picking two very different companies as examples, one listed and one government owned:

AGL are quietly progressing their Victorian gas supply plan. There’s opposition to it sure but they’re plodding along with it, ticking the proverbial boxes and so on.

If built then it’ll have a substantial impact in Victoria, it’ll have the ability to supply more than half the state’s peak day gas demand, and that also has flow on implications for SA, NSW/ACT and Tas.

On the other side of Bass Strait it’s public knowledge that Hydro Tas and Norske Skog signed a bulk supply deal last year which runs through to 2030. Norske Skog is a major paper manufacturer - they’ve signed the power supply deal in Tas, are keeping the factory open 40km from Hobart and have shut their other one in NSW.

So there’s some things happening with those doing them tending to be “winners” relative to those who aren’t and that applies both at the corporate level and the broader community (state) level.

On the downside of all this, well I won’t name them but it’s no secret that there are manufacturers installing new coal-fired boilers as the only way to keep the factory viable. Gas price is far too high so it’s either that or shut the doors and become an importer.

Those coal-fired boilers won’t be going away anytime soon, they’ll run through to 2050 at a minimum. If anyone wants them shut due to CO2 then taxpayers will need to open their wallets or we need tariff protection against imports.

There’s a few others looking at the same idea but wary of falling foul of anyone protesting about coal.

One’s going down the import route instead due to that concern but there’s another that’s come up with a clever way to physically disguise the use of coal on site as a workaround. It’s a ludicrous situation but a clever trick nonetheless.

 

[Smurf1976]

By the way, that is the advantage the W.A system has over the Eastern States, there is only one privately operated coal fired major Power Station( Blue Waters).

I’d be willing to bet that Bluewaters ends up with a somewhat shorter lifespan than Muja.

For that matter I wouldn’t be surprised if its operating life is shorter than Bunbury or even South Fremantle too.

On the plus side, well pulling it down should be a cinch compared to any of the others........