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There is nothing conceptual about blowing up power stations, that adds load to the rest of the aging infrastructure, it works in the generators interest to bend to public pressure and remove coal generation.Yes. It is just that I suspect that 12 months ago the issue was conceptual but in the last few months the long term breakdown of major elements in our power supply has sharpened the focus.
Certainly brings up the urgency of more solar and wind power as well as battery and hydro storage.
You were under the impression I understood, your funny.That's funny SP. I was under the impression you had finally understood and agreed that the future of energy generation in Oz was with cheaper non polluting renewable energy with supporting battery and hydro - as distinct from keeping very tired, grossly polluting and unsustainable coal fired power stations operating.
I'll steer clear of the politics and focus on the technical and financial (including investment) aspects of it all.How serious is the news of continual long term failures of Victoria's power supply?
I mean you do seem to have a grasp of the situation whats the problem ffs.
On the question of storage, a few comments:
So far as dams are concerned they're absolutely a site specific thing in every way - cost, effectiveness, ecological impact.
For example the Miena dam (Great Lake) and the now demolished Lagoon Of Islands dam in Tasmania are less than 25km apart measured in a straight line.
Miena has been an outstanding success, having improved endangered species habitat as a benefit aside from that of storing water. In all honesty I've never heard even one person argue that it shouldn't have been built - even the more hard line greens don't seem to take issue with it and that's a proper big dam not something small. There's plenty of other big dams much the same - nobody with any credibility has any real objection to them on ecological grounds.
Lagoon Of Islands however, well from an environmental perspective it was the biggest failure so far as dams actually built in Tas are concerned and after half a century of trying to make it work ecologically, and building additional things like a canal to achieve that, well the Hydro finally gave up and demolished it. By "demolished' I mean that literally - it's outright gone, removed in total. Not just the water let out or the dam breached but the entire dam wall and everything associated with it has been removed completely. It's really gone.
A point about dams though is that to the extent they have an impact it's largely one that's reversible on a human time scale. If the dam is no longer required then drain the water out, revegetate the area, and within a century it'll be back almost perfect to how the area was before the dam was built. That's a point that even those who were firmly in the No Dams camp during the big debates have made in more recent times - the impact is largely a reversable one.
At the very least, the impacts of a dam are an order of magnitude more reversable than the impacts of coal mines, fossil fuel combustion, nuclear waste and so on. They beat all of those.
So far as the need for dams or other means of storage is concerned, I'll refer back to the chart of wind energy output I posted earlier.
Small pumped hydro schemes with "turkey nest" dams and/or batteries do the job of meeting daily (summer) or twice daily (winter) peak demand without difficulty so long as they can be and are recharged between those times. That's dead easy so long as the backbone of power generation is fossil fuels (or nuclear).
In a 100% renewable system however, and faced with a week long wind drought right in the middle of Winter when solar yield is at its worst and daily energy demand is high, that idea fails completely. No longer is is charge and discharge twice a day. Now it's discharge and then discharge again and keep discharging.
Wind and solar, no storage, gets to ~ one third renewable energy without any hassle at all.
It gets to about 50% with some minor shooting of itself in the foot, loss of efficiency at fossil fuel power stations, but it does get there.
Add small pumped hydro and batteries and lifting that to ~75% is pretty straightforward and all very doable.
For the remainder to work in an economical manner (note "economical" as opposed to "technical" since the economic constraint is the harsher of the two) realistically it's big hydro or it's fossil fuels.
A related issue there is that whilst peak power demand in most states peaks in summer, total energy use peaks in winter. If look at Victoria for example, well the amount of energy used for heating buildings during Winter, almost all of which is supplied from gas, exceeds the total electricity consumption of Victoria, SA and Tas combined.
Assuming the ultimate intent is to go to renewable energy, not just renewable electricity generation, then heating loads are a major consideration since it means that maximum consumption occurs at the time of year when wind and especially solar are least effective. A point that brings us straight back to big storage projects which are able to run solidly for extended periods without recharging.
In that context I'll note that the existing NSW, Vic and Tas hydro assets, with some reworking, and proposed large scale pumped storage schemes get us a long way down the road but not to the end.
More will need to be done, particularly in the 2040's, but so long as the approach toward dams is pragmatic rather than ideological it ought to be doable.
There's no need in 2019 to be contemplating building dams which flood areas of high conservation value. There was an argument there in a world where wind and solar weren't viable options, oil supplies were threatened and prices had just tripled whilst taxpayer funds weren't available to subsidise energy projects which had to be cheap and pay their own way. That was the world of 1979 but it is not the world of 2019.
On the other hand, deliberately putting the boundaries of National Parks and the like just a few meters past a dam site for no reason other than to stop it being built, the stuff worthy of conservation being downstream not upstream, is just playing politics and not at all sensible or helpful in a move toward greater sustainability. Pragmatism not ideology is what's required in all of this.
There's also the question of whether or not we're actually going to 100% renewables? Or are we going to some lower figure in practice?
f you've got antique steam plant well then there's no real point anyone standing around acting surprised when there's a breakdown. I mean seriously - who here drives around in a 1973 car or has their 1968 washing machine still in regular use and expects it to work flawlessly day after day? Anything which runs at hundreds of degrees and high speed has a finite life that's the nature of it.
Likewise there's no point anyone blaming the machinery or its original designers and builders if it fails due to poor operating and maintenance practices. That's a fault of one lot of humans who ignored the other humans saying there was a need to check things with the machine, it's not the fault of the machine itself that it needs maintenance otherwise it breaks.
No point blaming genuine bad luck for causing a problem when anyone with knowledge knows that bad things do happen and that there's a need to be prepared hence the spare capacity. Every grid in the world, at least in developed countries, was designed with that in mind. Heck there's even a completely fictional novel, written by a fiction author not an engineer, based around the concept and that book's 40 or so years old.
Lets get it clear folks. An engineer like Smurf is pointing out that our coal fired power plants are well and truly run down and on the way out. Repairs are possible but expensive and probably throwing good money after bad (even if it is essential in the short term)
In 2019 the most cost effective and environmentally appropriate solution is fast tracking of cheaper, cleaner , renewable energy supplies with necessary hydro and battery back ups. And I'm sure there will be some extra items for good measure.
Trying to say we should repair old coal plant indefinitely or build new coal fired power stations flies against all economic and environmental factors.
I thought this thread was trying to take us in a constructive direction as to how we make a power grid fit for purpose in the 21st Century - not just defend old technology that has clearly passed its use by date.
Lets get it clear folks. An engineer like Smurf is pointing out that our coal fired power plants are well and truly run down and on the way out. Repairs are possible but expensive and probably throwing good money after bad (even if it is essential in the short term)
In 2019 the most cost effective and environmentally appropriate solution is fast tracking of cheaper, cleaner , renewable energy supplies with necessary hydro and battery back ups. And I'm sure there will be some extra items for good measure.
Trying to say we should repair old coal plant indefinitely or build new coal fired power stations flies against all economic and environmental factors.
I thought this thread was trying to take us in a constructive direction as to how we make a power grid fit for purpose in the 21st Century - not just defend old technology that has clearly passed its use by date.
I give up. Lol
A minor error on my part there - the plan was to mothball 2 x 120 MW units but they were numbers 2 & 4 not 1 & 2.Amidst all this, AGL have changed their mind about mothballing Torrens Island A units 1 & 2 in SA.
Totally understand your sentiments SP.
I mean we could reference all the (CSIRO) analysis which shows how much more cost effective new renewable energy sources are compared to coal fired stations - even when they include back up batteries.
We could talk about the rapid rate of improvement of these new technologies in terms of cost effectiveness ie 3rd gen solar cells, rapidly reducing battery costs, flow battery technology, distributed small scale hydro to store excess solar energy.
We could recognize the huge health effects of coal fired power stations through particulate pollution let alone their impact on global heating.
Maybe we can see how much water is required to cool these power stations (a VERY big amount) and ask if we can afford to use that resource so recklessly.
Perhaps we could look at the the value of a decentralized power system in terms of creating extra power redundancy across the country, increasing local employment, giving local communities an opportunity to be self sufficient in their critical energy needs.
Finally we can assess the current state of Oz's coal fired power stations and realise they are generally on their last legs and as result costing a bomb to keep operating. They will need to be replaced and given the rising maintenance costs and reliability issues isn't sooner rather than later a good idea ?
In fact I think this thread has covered all of these bases. But as you say so eloquently "LOL".
You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
It comes down to multiple parameters all of which need to be met in order for it to work.@basilio, do you really not understand that the problem is NOT cost or even sheer amount of energy produced overall but stability of the system?
How many more reports Smurf need to write on that thread?
Geez, that's a lot of money for a alternator repair. Can't they get a cheaper Chinese exchange unit off ebay?Loy Yang A unit 2 - major damage requires a complete rewind of the alternator, at a cost of $57 million, to repair. AGL has awarded a contract to GE Power Australia to perform this work.
Smurf1976 said:In saying all that, there's no choice but to ultimately make renewable sources work for the simple reason that's in the name. They're renewable whereas fossils are finite even without considering the CO2 problem. So it has to happen, and it can be done, but we need to build the complete house before knocking the old one down (or having it fall down of its own accord), we can't just dump a few pallets of bricks and tiles on the site and say there's your house.
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