The future of energy generation and storage

SirRumpole said:

It's pretty hard to store.

If you store it as a gas it leaks out, if you store it as a liquid it has o be refrigerated.

It can be stored in metal hydrides, but that's a developing technology.

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Large alternator rotors run in hydrogen and have done for over half a century, storing the hydrogen in cylinders hasn't been a problem, that is how the hydrogen is fed into the generator casing.
So I really fail to understand what you mean by it is pretty hard to store.
Muja Power Station has been making hydrogen since I was a boy( which is quite a long time ago), and storing it in red cylinders not unlike oxy bottles.

Wysiwyg said:

Okay I found the S.A. Hydrogen Road Map. It is the governments plan to run public transport off hydrogen. Rail, bus and governement vehicles.



Asia will make their own hydrogen I would think but I am not university educated soooo.

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Yes, if you read post 2207, further down the page there are a couple of links to the S.A Government initiative.

Value Collector said:

Electrolysis is a way to convert electricity into hydrogen, by cracking water molecules, however that process wastes a lot of energy, So the energy you have left over in the hydrogen, is about 60% less than what you had in the electricity to begin with, then if you want to store that hydrogen you have to use more energy to compress it or freeze it, using further energy.

So you have to weigh up whether it makes more sense to just use the electricity in its original form, or whether it makes sense to convert it to hydrogen, if the end result you want is electricity, then its going to make more sense to skip the hydrogen process.

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The end result is you have a fuel in storage, that can be used to generate electricity by running a gas turbine, you can also run it through a fuel cell and make electricity, you can use it to fuel an airplane, run an internal combustion engine, you can even pump it into your LNG gas main to supplement or replace natural gas at you cooktop, HWS.

The good thing is there is no left over residue, there is no raw materials, other than water and your left over waste is water.

Value Collector said:

What is the efficiency of these new methods?

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Who cares?
If for example, you have say 2000MW of installed wind generation which is your peak load.
Then overnight, and during the off peak period during the day, your load drops to say 500MW, you have 1500MW of available generation that can be used to make H2 fuel.
This can then be stored and if not required kept, then if the next day the same circumstances prevail, you have twice as much stored fuel...
You seem to have some problem with the process, due to the efficiency, what does it matter if the generated energy would otherwise be lost.
It is no different to pumped storage, it is using available excess renewable generation, and using it to store energy in another form.

SirRumpole said:

It's pretty hard to store.

If you store it as a gas it leaks out, if you store it as a liquid it has o be refrigerated.

It can be stored in metal hydrides, but that's a developing technology.

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Another thought hit me Rumpole, google hydrogen bottles and click on images, you will see how they store it ready for use.

sptrawler said:

Another thought hit me Rumpole, google hydrogen bottles and click on images, you will see how they store it ready for use.

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Yes , I guess hydrogen can be stored as a gas like any other, but the molecule is so small that losses due to leakage are larger than for other gases.

SirRumpole said:

Yes , I guess hydrogen can be stored as a gas like any other, but the molecule is so small that losses due to leakage are larger than for other gases.

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Whatever.

If that was the case, commercial buyers, would be asking BOC for a discount on their H2 bottles. FFS

sptrawler said:

The end result is you have a fuel in storage, that can be used to generate electricity by running a gas turbine,
you can also run it through a fuel cell and make electricity,

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But you have to weigh that against just feeding the electricity into the grid to begin with, without the loss of turning it into hydrogen first

you can use it to fuel an airplane,

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Really? which planes?

sptrawler said:

Who cares?
.

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you have to weigh up the storage options, and go for the most efficient storage.

sptrawler said:

Whatever.

If that was the case, commercial buyers, would be asking BOC for a discount on their H2 bottles. FFS

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Sir Rumpole is correct, Its called Hydrogen permeation, it can slowly pass through metals in much the same way helium leaks out of balloons and the balloons don't float after a day or too.

There is also the embrittlement problem, hydrogen makes metals more brittle over time as it passes through.

Natural gas pipelines are setup to carry Methane, which is a much bigger molecule so it doesn't leak, also I am not sure the owners of the pipelines would be ok with transporting Hydrogen if it is going to damage their pipes over time.

Value Collector said:

the same way helium leaks out of balloons and the balloons don't float after a day or too.

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The people who do those mass balloon releases at social events need a good slap. The balloons come down and end up in water ways and oceans. Completely inconsiderate and unnecessary.

The only real concern I have, beyond any technical difficulties, with the idea of exporting hydrogen is who is going to buy it?

The idea that someone wants to import hydrogen supposes that they lack some source of energy and/or water themselves *and* are willing to pay a premium price to avoid the use of fossil fuels (most hydrogen being produced from natural gas).

SA is a good place in terms of sun and a reasonable one in terms of wind but water is scarce enough to actually be considered a valuable resource in itself. In that regard, and looking at places that are part of the main Australian electricity grid, northern Queensland or alternatively Tasmania would both seem to have advantages with the latter also having a slightly better wind resource than SA does.

That said, SA does have the advantage of actually doing it. It's much the same as Snowy 2.0 and Battery of the Nation (Hydro Tas) in that regard. Actual, real projects that just need politics on side to make them happen versus an assortment of academic ideas with no firm proposal.

My own view on hydrogen for transport fuel is undecided at this stage. It's a contest between batteries versus hydrogen that's comparable to the battle between internal combustion versus batteries a century ago to power cars and then once internal combustion won, it became a battle between petrol versus ethanol for a while as a means of fueling those engines.

As for large scale storage in the grid, pumped hydro leaves hydrogen for dead in my view. I say that noting that even in SA, a place not normally associated with hydro, there's at least one viable site of significant scale just 12km of the Adelaide CBD. At 70 - 80% efficiency, lifespan of a century and using large synchronous machines it's hard to beat.

On a smaller scale though hydrogen and batteries do have a use. Even in Tas there's at least one obvious place to put a modest scale battery in the grid and in the other states there are far more.

Wysiwyg said:

The people who do those mass balloon releases at social events need a good slap. The balloons come down and end up in water ways and oceans. Completely inconsiderate and unnecessary.

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There's also a point that helium is an important gas for uses far more necessary than balloons and is scarce.

Once released it escapes the earth's atmosphere so unlike most other gases can't simply be stripped from air as a source. No, we're reliant on stripping it out of natural gas.

That's one reason I'm firmly of the view that natural gas is a valuable resource too precious to be squandering as boiler fuel etc. Even if we go 100% renewable for energy, we still need gas for quite a few other things which don't involve burning it.

Value Collector said:

there are a few ways that can help with that.

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4, Shifting some of the off peak times to midday..

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There's really two issues. Too much electricity as such and too much being produced in residential areas and fed into a distribution network which can't cope.

In SA there are known problems already in the distribution network in areas with high penetration of solar PV. In some cases they have been worked around by SA Power Networks (SAPN) adjusting the off-peak water heating timers to operate during the period 10am - 3pm but that only works in areas where there's enough off-peak water heaters, it doesn't work if everyone's using gas or solar hot water.

Nobody's sure how much, but undoubtedly some solar PV generation is being lost (in most cases without the system owner being aware of it) because grid voltage rises too high and the solar inverters throttle back. Nobody knows for sure how much but in SA it's definitely happening and it probably happens in other states (Vic and Qld especially) too.

On a larger scale, too much electricity as such, any sort of storage fixes that be it battery, hydrogen or pumped hydro. As per my previous comments there's a role for batteries certainly but for sheer scale and "grunt" pumped hydro leaves everything else for dead at the moment. That might change someday but we're not there yet.

For the timing of this problem, there are various estimates but on present trends:

SA - it's a problem now with large scale wind generation routinely being turned off (when there's plenty of wind) in order to cope with high levels of PV generation and maintain a stable power grid. Estimates vary but we're talking about "a few years, maybe 5 or so" before there's a major problem with too much solar power going in and no means of dealing with it on mild days when consumption is low.

What happens if nothing is done? Let's just say SA's going to have a rather big problem if there's no solution and the link to Vic fails. You can't run a grid, even briefly, if there's over supply and no means to deal with it. Try doing that and you'll end up with a system collapse real quick.

Solutions = Additional interstate links and/or building more storage locally. In that context note that the need is for something which can soak up power over many hours continuously and that "close to empty" becomes the required status of that storage at 10am on a sunny day since the need is to be able to fill it not necessarily to discharge it as such (though obviously it will be discharged later that evening or overnight).

Vic - heading the same way as SA but is quite a few years behind. Solutions = realistically they'll export the problem to NSW and/or Tas via Snowy 2.0 and/or Battery of the Nation.

Qld, NSW / ACT, Tas - The dominance of large industrial load (Qld, Tas), existing network control systems (Qld, NSW), an unusually strong distribution network (Tas) and the capabilities of existing large scale pumped storage generating plant (Qld, NSW) can cope with any likely growth in solar PV for quite some time to come. I won't say there will never be a problem but it's nowhere near as soon as it is in SA and Vic.

I don't have enough info about some details in WA and NT to comment there.

Smurf1976 said:

There's really two issues. Too much electricity as such and too much being produced in residential areas and fed into a distribution network which can't cope.

In SA there are known problems already in the distribution network in areas with high penetration of solar PV. In some cases they have been worked around by SA Power Networks (SAPN) adjusting the off-peak water heating timers to operate during the period 10am - 3pm but that only works in areas where there's enough off-peak water heaters, it doesn't work if everyone's using gas or solar hot water.

Nobody's sure how much, but undoubtedly some solar PV generation is being lost (in most cases without the system owner being aware of it) because grid voltage rises too high and the solar inverters throttle back. Nobody knows for sure how much but in SA it's definitely happening and it probably happens in other states (Vic and Qld especially) too.

.

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Thats why I was suggesting introducing localised home based storage systems, like the Tesla power wall for example, if these were programmed to start charging during peak solar times, we would have less of the solar production hitting the grid during those times.

Also, electric vehicle charging would give the grid managers more off-peak outlets on top of the hot water you said they are already trying to utilise.

Value Collector said:

But you have to weigh that against just feeding the electricity into the grid to begin with, without the loss of turning it into hydrogen first

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You can't just keep pumping electricity into the grid.

Value Collector said:

Really? which planes?

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https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hy4-fuel-cell-plane/index.html

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...y-make-sense-for-airplanes-replacing-jet-fuel

Value Collector said:

you have to weigh up the storage options, and go for the most efficient storage.

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Sustainability is paramount, that's where batteries fall behind pumped storage and hydrogen storage.

Value Collector said:

Sir Rumpole is correct, Its called Hydrogen permeation, it can slowly pass through metals in much the same way helium leaks out of balloons and the balloons don't float after a day or too.

There is also the embrittlement problem, hydrogen makes metals more brittle over time as it passes through.

Natural gas pipelines are setup to carry Methane, which is a much bigger molecule so it doesn't leak, also I am not sure the owners of the pipelines would be ok with transporting Hydrogen if it is going to damage their pipes over time.

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While your on the phone to the S.A Government, regarding their folly with hydrogen generation.
You might as well tell them about their error, with regard blending hydrogen with the LNG.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/trial-to-inject-hydrogen-into-gas-lines/8782956

Value Collector said:

Thats why I was suggesting introducing localised home based storage systems

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No argument there. I should perhaps have clarified that I’m adding to your comments not disputing them.

So long as it adds electrical load during the middle of the day, but does not add load late in the afternoon or early evening, then it helps address the problem. Obviously that added load should be for a useful purpose etc.

How to go about it is a bit like arguing the merits of cars versus trucks (or batteries versus pumped hydro). Both have a valid role.

The only gripe I have with the whole thing is that in order to change a time switch in SA to heat water during the middle of the day, as a workaround to the problem of excess solar generation, SAPN actually wants the home owner to pay them for changing the times. Needless to say not too many have actually been changed thus far.

sptrawler said:

You can't just keep pumping electricity into the grid.




https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hy4-fuel-cell-plane/index.html

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Rather than create hydrogen to turn back into electricity later, why not just use the electricity to offset the gas fired power plants that are already running?

So no actual plane of use?

Sustainability is paramount, that's where batteries fall behind pumped storage and hydrogen storage.

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Hydrogen falls behind Batteries and pumped hydro.

While your on the phone to the S.A Government, regarding their folly with hydrogen generation.
You might as well tell them about their error, with regard blending hydrogen with the LNG.

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I have been a longterm investor in APA, since they listed. There main business is moving Natural gas around the country via pipelines, they also have a growing investment in Solar and wind farms, not once have I heard them suggest that moving Hydrogen via their pipelines is the future.

If it were viable to add hydrogen into the pipelines, no one would benefit more than APA, so it would benefit me, but as I have said its just not practical yet, and may require a lot of new pipelines.