The Death Penalty: Do/would you support it?

[bullmarket]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Hi kennas

The serial rapist murderer repeat offender, who broke into your house, tied you up, and forced you to watch him repeatedly violently rape and then murder your 12 year old daughter should die.

Obvioulsy there's variations on this story, but you get my point. Some people do not deserve to be using our vital oxygen. And we shouldn't be spending milions of dollars to lock them up in a holiday camp with bars.

I disagree - imo that offender has just as much right to life as you and I and everyone else, especially if they show genuine remorse and there is a chance of rehabilitation over time......sure, they have to spend significant time in prison to reflect on the consequences of their crimes and to hopefully repent and rehabilitate and to act as a deterrent to others.....and for those that show no remorse or unwillingness to even attempt rehabilitation then as I said earlier, lock them up for the term of their natural life.....imo the pros of this greatly outweigh the cons.

Unfortunately I have to leave soon for the weekend, so I will return next week to discuss further if you like.....or even if you don't like

cheers

bullmarket

 

[crackaton]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

The serial rapist murderer repeat offender, who broke into your house, tied you up, and forced you to watch him repeatedly violently rape and then murder your 12 year old daughter should die.

Obvioulsy there's variations on this story, but you get my point. Some people do not deserve to be using our vital oxygen. And we shouldn't be spending milions of dollars to lock them up in a holiday camp with bars.

Spot on Kennas. They know what they are doing and there is no rehabilitation. Even behind bars they infect society. these are not people, theese are the lowest form of life on this planet. A coachroach has more right to life than these scum. Hang shoot fry the ****ers. No publicity. No waste of time. No bull**** wankers saying this is wrong.No last meal. Nothing. Once sentenced straight out the back door and be done with. I'll bet they'll show remorse dangling in the air.

 

[Joe Blow]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Crackaton, tone down the language please. It is completely unneccessary.

 

[crackaton]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Crackaton, tone down the language please. It is completely unneccessary.

Sorry Joe. I'm just very emotive about this particular topic. sorry to all posters on this thread also.

 

[coyotte]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Spot on Kennas. They know what they are doing and there is no rehabilitation. Even behind bars they infect society. these are not people, theese are the lowest form of life on this planet. A coachroach has more right to life than these scum. Hang shoot fry the ****ers. No publicity. No waste of time. No bull**** wankers saying this is wrong.No last meal. Nothing. Once sentenced straight out the back door and be done with. I'll bet they'll show remorse dangling in the air.

your view would seem to be with the majority --- hence how come our claim to be a "christian nation" with christian values!
at least love em or hate em, the moslem nations practice what they claim to be and not swap their values around to suit the situation.

Cheers

 

[Sean K]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Coyote, I think a problem with this topic is that the 'Christians' can not discuss it logically and reasonably as they are bound to the ethics instructed in the Book. And as Bull has said 'Thou Shall Not Kill' is an overriding principle which probably negates all the other talk of killing, and retribution, and 'eye for an eye' stuff.

The problem with the ethics of the Book is that it does not say WHY you should not do something, it just says 'do this, or don't do that, or you go to hell!' That is not a logical or justifiable argument. It doesn't hold up in a court of law.

So, I think we should try as much as possible to come up with some logical and sound reasons why or why not we should have the death penalty.

I say yes, purely on a relevant punishment basis. I do not believe our system is a 'rehabilitation' system, but it is a 'justice' system, and that means that for certain crimes 'justice' needs to be served. Sure, rehab is part of our system, but in this case we are talking about the most serious of crimes that probably take anothers life.

For the most heinous of crimes, where an individual has inflected terrible suffering on another, and taken life, and which has ultimately significantly effected others, such as friends and family, for their lifetimes, then the only 'justice' would be for them to forfeit their own life for their actions.

 

[BSD]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

I would only support it for the children of those who agree with it.

 

[Joe Blow]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Crackaton has just earned himself a week's holiday. Next time it will be permanent.

 

[bunyip]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

I doubt if there's a person alive who really believes it's never right to kill someone.
Consider a situation where some thug breaks into your house and starts weilding an axe. He hacks up one of your kids first, then heads for your wife or husband or some other member or your family, or he heads for you.
Each and every one of us would kill him if we could, if that was the only possible way to stop him.
And our killing of him would NOT be wrong, it would be right and it would be justified as a means of protecting others from being killed.

That's what happens when some terrorist or some drug smuggling bastard is executed....by killing one person we save others. I was absolutely delighted when Van Ngyuen was hanged in Singapore. The mongrel was going to smuggle 25,000 doses of poison into our country for distribution to our citizens, mainly our young people. Some of them would quite likely have died as a result of using this poision. Drug traffickers are mass murderes, and do not deserve to live.

The smiling assassin, Indonesian Amrossi, is a mass murderer who does not deserve to live.
Abu Bakir Bashir is a mass murderer who does not deserve to live.

It's ludicrous to suggest that these types of people should be kept in prison permanently and given, at tax payers expense, all the necessities of life such as food, accommodation, medical care, clothes etc.

Get rid of them, use them for body parts, whatever, but just get rid of them. The world would be a better place without them.

Bunyip

 

[Prospector]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

I doubt if there's a person alive who really believes it's never right to kill someone.
Consider a situation where some thug breaks into your house and starts weilding an axe. He hacks up one of your kids first, then heads for your wife or husband or some other member or your family, or he heads for you.
Each and every one of us would kill him if we could, if that was the only possible way to stop him.
And our killing of him would NOT be wrong, it would be right and it would be justified as a means of protecting others from being killed.

Bunyip

Of course you are entitled to protect yourself and family if you are in fear of your life. But that is not what the issue is here - it is about a court of law sentencing a person to death - ie state legalised killing when there is no personal threat of death. Entirely different!

Just wondering why this thread has changed into accusing new immigrants of being the ones most likely to be in this situation Probably the only people for whom I thought maybe death penalty was appropriate was Martin Bryant (blonde, blue eyed aryan) and Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma bomber/US Resident/US Marine - first Iraq war)

Also, I havent voted NO on the poll above - life is never black and white, but then, maybe I am just a true Gemini - Mr P calls it being indecisive

 

[kerosam]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

i'm for it! If my children happens to be a victim of some sick b*****d's actions, bugga the values of any institutions, bugga the offender's right, hang or shoot the bugger, i say! including the legal representative who try plead 'insanity' for the b******d.

one example, from spiderman the movie comes to mind.... peter parker's(spiderman) uncle was murdered by the crook whom Peter has allowed to escape after the crook has robbed Peter's boss. well, it maybe a hollywood movie, but there's a principle behind the event... well, that's my opinion anyway.

 

[Porper]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Imo, those who support the death penalty undeniably support morally blatant, cowardly, cold blooded murder and arguing the death penalty rids society of people we are better of without is blatant BS imo because I assume someone who murders someone else out of vengeance, hate or whatever is in their mind ridding the world of someone they perceive the world would be better off without as well


And then there is the religious side of the argument

So let me get this right.You think people that support the death penalty support cold blooded murder ?

You also use a strange example.Let's talk about murderers and rapists, and not somebody killing another person out of vengeance.These are the criminals that should be castrated or put in the chair until fried.

As for the religious side, that's easy, the biggest cause of war and ill feeling in the world bar nothing !! No doubt this last comment will cause an outcry...........Tough luck.The facts don't lie.

 

[saichuen]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

it is not the death penalty that worries me most but rather the crime that the condemned has committed. whatever it is, there will definitely be different views of it.

if a person is to consider committing a crime in a place where a death penalty is applicable, then it better be worth the effort for whatever the reason may be.

my 2cents worth...

 

[bunyip]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Of course you are entitled to protect yourself and family if you are in fear of your life. But that is not what the issue is here - it is about a court of law sentencing a person to death - ie state legalised killing when there is no personal threat of death. Entirely different!

You completely missed my point......By killing an axe-weilding home invader we prevent him from killing our innocent family. Similarly, by killing drug smugglers and terrorists we achieve the same thing...we prevent them from further killing of innocent people.
And we send a very strong message to society that if you commit these horrible crimes, you can expect to forfeit your life.

And please - don't insult my intelligence or your own by suggesting that such a policy is no deterrent. Sure, there will always be drug smugglers and terrorists and mass murderers regrdless of what penalities we impose. But there will be less of them, resulting in less innocent people being killed.
Proof? Singapore has some of the toughest laws and penalities of any country in the world. It also has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and is one of the worlds safest cities.

But wait a minute I hear you say, instead of killing these scum, let's put them in prison for the rest of their lives so as to eliminate any possibility of them committing further crimes.
What a joke....In this day and age of corrupt judges (particularly in Indonesia), slick lawyers, endless appeals, nobody with an ounce of common sense really believes that a sentence of life in prison actually means that a person will never be released.

Apart from that, how many of them get a life sentence anyway? Quite a few get 15 or 20 years but are released after serving 10.
They go home, they're treated like lepers, nobody wants to employ them because of their criminal record.
Are we really so naive that we can't see the probability of these people returning to the drug trade because it's the only 'employment' they can get?

Other criminals like Abu Baka Bashir get 18 months for masterminding the Bali bombing that killed close to 200 people. Such a debacle could be avoided if he was given a death sentence, then taken out behind the courthouse and shot.

Any clear thinking person can see that someone like him is not fit to walk on this earth, and should be eliminated. Any clear thinker can see the very real possibility of him instigating further atrocities now that he out of prison and free to go about spruiking his messages of hate.

The Christian mob like to draw our attention to the "Thou shalt not kill" commandent in the bible. Yet they conveniently neglect to mention that the bible also encourages killing, and has various stories that glorify killing.
The bible also says 'an eye for an eye'.

Try giving the 'thou shalt not kill' rhetoric to the families of those killed by Amrossi the smiling assasin, as he grinned like a lunatic from the dock, waved his fist in the air and shouted 'God is great'.

Someone on this thread claimed that criminals who commit terrible crimes like mass murder have the same right to life as everyone else. Rubbish. They have no rights at all, they forfeit their rights the moment they take the life of innocent people.
They're not fit to breathe the same air as the rest of us breathe. They're not fit to feed and clothe and be given health care. They're fit for none of the rights of decent people.
An eye for an eye.
We all want to live in a safe society with minimal crime. Our best chance of achieving such a society is to model our criminal justice and law enforcement policies on countries that have a proven track record in this regard.....countries like Singapore.

Bunyip

 

[Prospector]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

You completely missed my point......By killing an axe-weilding home invader we prevent him from killing our innocent family. Similarly, by killing drug smugglers and terrorists we achieve the same thing...we prevent them from further killing of innocent people.
And we send a very strong message to society that if you commit these horrible crimes, you can expect to forfeit your life.

Bunyip

Well, if you reread your original post you didnt write it like that. You wrote it as though you were in the middle of a terrible incident and had to do what you could (ie kill the person) in order to be alive yourself (and you family).

Surely I am not insulting anyone's intelligence by suggesting that there is an issue with legally sanctifying the killing of another person. I also do not believe that the threat of death is an actual deterrent, otherwise there would be no murders in the US state of Texas. Murders are committed for a number of reasons - eg Crimes of passion, in which case the threat of death is certainly no deterrent, crimes of madness, in which case there is no deterrent, and crimes of opportunity (in which case the death threat MAY be a deterrent).

The evidence did not show that Abu Baka Bashir masterminded the Bali bombings, although I do understand the anger that has resulted from his release.

And yes, I think there are clearly some people who are not fit to walk upon this earth, but why should I be the judge of that? I dont think I am that clever. And by what definition do you determine 'fit'? Some people would say I was not fit to walk upon this earth because I am not religious! Certianly the muslin community would think I was not worthy of breath, and probably fundamentalist Christians too!

I didnt 'cry' when the drug smuggler in Singapore was executed and I did get angry with all the attention it received. But the KNOWN threat of death in Singapore for such crimes didnt stop him doing it in the first place, did it?

I also resent the money that has paid for the prison system, but not enough to sanction the death penalty.

I really, really, see your point. I just cannot see that the death penalty is the answer.

 

[bunyip]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Well, if you reread your original post you didnt write it like that. You wrote it as though you were in the middle of a terrible incident and had to do what you could (ie kill the person) in order to be alive yourself (and you family).

Surely I am not insulting anyone's intelligence by suggesting that there is an issue with legally sanctifying the killing of another person. I also do not believe that the threat of death is an actual deterrent, otherwise there would be no murders in the US state of Texas. Murders are committed for a number of reasons - eg Crimes of passion, in which case the threat of death is certainly no deterrent, crimes of madness, in which case there is no deterrent, and crimes of opportunity (in which case the death threat MAY be a deterrent).

The evidence did not show that Abu Baka Bashir masterminded the Bali bombings, although I do understand the anger that has resulted from his release.

And yes, I think there are clearly some people who are not fit to walk upon this earth, but why should I be the judge of that? I dont think I am that clever. And by what definition do you determine 'fit'? Some people would say I was not fit to walk upon this earth because I am not religious! Certianly the muslin community would think I was not worthy of breath, and probably fundamentalist Christians too!

I didnt 'cry' when the drug smuggler in Singapore was executed and I did get angry with all the attention it received. But the KNOWN threat of death in Singapore for such crimes didnt stop him doing it in the first place, did it?

I also resent the money that has paid for the prison system, but not enough to sanction the death penalty.

I really, really, see your point. I just cannot see that the death penalty is the answer.

Prospector

I respectfully suggest that it's you, not I, who should reread my post. If you do so you'll see that I did not mention the hypothetical home invasion incident in isolation.
I mentioned that in that situation you'd be justified in killing the offender to save your innocent family from harm or death. Then in the very next paragraph I drew the parallel between this situation and the situation where a drug smuggler or terrorist is executed as a way or preventing him from committing further killings.

You stated that the death penalty is no deterrent. To support your view you've mentioned the fact that there are still murders in Texas which has the death penalty for murder.
This doesn't mean that the penalty is no deterrent, it simply shows that no matter how tough the penalties, there will always be some crime.
Take Singapore for example....the country still has crime, are you therefore suggesting that the penalties they have are no deterrent? They have the lowest crime rate in the world.....from where I'm standing it sure looks like they're effectively deterring most people from committing crimes.
We have rapes in Australia.....does that mean that the penalty for rape (5 to 50 years in jail) is no deterrent? Try removing the penalty altogether, now there are no deterrents at all, a man can rape whomever he wants. The number of rapes would immediately spiral out of control.
There is no complete answer to crime, no single penalty that will ensure zero crime levels, not even the death penalty. But that doesn't mean that deterrents do not deter.
Again, I refer you to the Singapore example....they have the toughest penalties, and consequently the lowest crime rate, of any country in the world.
True enough, in the case of drug smuggler Van Ngyuen, the threat of death didn't stop him from committing the crime. But by hell it's stopped plenty of other people from committing crimes in Singapore, and this fact is reflected in Singapores extremely low crime rate not just for drug trafficking, but for all other crimes as well.
The Singapore government are not kidding themselves they can wipe out crime altogether, but they're fully aware that the harsher their penalties, the less crime they'll have to endure. And they have the track record to prove it.

My information is that the evidence did show that Bakar Bashir masterminded the Bali bombings. And whether he did or didn't, if he was involved with it in any way, then he should now be a dead man.

You don't think you're fit to judge others? Why not? You're a decent person aren't you? If decent people like you and me can't judge others, then who can?
Are you suggesting that we abandon our legal system on the basis that jurors and magistrates and judges, (who afterall are just ordinary people like you and me) are not fit to judge anyone either?

If you resent the money being poured into the prison system, then perhaps you should change your view that rapists of little kids, and terrorist and drug smugglers and other mass murders, should be given free food, accommodation, clothes, medical care and so on for the rest of their lives.
These people are scum, and should be eliminated.
If a savage dog attacked your child, the dog would be destroyed and both you and I every other clear thinking person would support its destruction. But the dog didn't kill anyone did it....only attacked and bit the child.
Yet if a drug smuggler or terrorist kills dozens of kids, not just bites them or hurts them, KILLS THEM, your policy is that we should not kill him, we should look after him for the rest of his life and give him everything he needs.
Sorry Prospector, but with all due respect you're not making a lot of sense.

Bunyip

 

[Prospector]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Bunyip, on the one hand you say I am a decent person fit to judge others, and in the next paragraph you say I am not making any sense. So

I am able to look at this from an objective point of view and not use emotive language or emotive situations to make my point. I am not a social worker, religious zealot or whatever. I have however, worked extensively with victims of serious crimes, children, and offenders and have professional qualifications in this area. Does that make me an expert - no, but maybe I do have some idea of what I am talking about!

 

[bunyip]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Prospector, professional qualifications are no substitue for common sense.

Dennis Ferguson repeatedly raped three small children as he held them captive in a Queensland motel for 5 days.
Commonsense says that we should castrate such a person and prevent him from ever setting foot in society again. Some say he should be executed, which I fully agree with.
Professional opinion takes a different view, it says we should give these types a period in jail, and also professional counselling aimed at rehabilitating them. Then give them another chance back out in the community.
Ferguson was released from prison despite the public outcry. Within a few weeks he had reoffended.
So much for professional qualifications.

 

[FXST01]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

Let them swing i say, (not the good swing either!)

 

[Happy]

Re: The Death Penalty. Do/would you support it?

If we can happily kill bacteria, viruses, cancerous tumours, plants, like weeds for example; this is only normal extension to other type of undesirable form of life.

Of course we can use them for spare parts, so there is no total waste.

And this could be done in a meantime, until we fix our gene mix and eliminate existence of violent behaviour, by skilful DNA or RNA manipulation or modification.

Then we can all become angels, with no need to take anybody’s life ever.