Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia

[Happy]

Sorry, I lost you, thought too fast.

There are 2 aspects of euthanasia, first to end suffering of concerned person.

Later on, when resources become scarce (say 100 years from now or 100,000 ), necessity will appear to look at how to share available resources.

If we think about costs of keeping community, unemployment is competing drain on resources, which have to be shared between, to provide support for people with different needs.


It might come to the point, when we will have to earn the right to live, but this is conceptual issue and not relevant to our current healthy rat race, so excuse my little rant.

 

[visual]

so I wasnt wrong when I connected your argument ,
Happy your idea will become a part of euthanasia method of delivery before you can blink or before the ink is dry on the legislation ,sorry but this apologies for getting things wrong ten years down the track annoys me,so if people cant be trusted ,lets not trust them,sorry have to go now.

 

[Knobby22]

The point is that suffering can be greatly eased with good terminal care.
This is a known and proven fact.
We should be provided rooms with good conditions to spend our last days.
People say NOW that they would not want to live with other people looking after their needs however if done with compassion and dignity then what is the problem?
That is what we should aim for.

Not create pressure for the dying to hurry up and get out of the way to save family costs and reduce the cost to the state.

And I definitely don't want my last days in pain dealing with numerous underfunded beaurocratic departments, waiting in queues to see lawyers, doctors, psychologists, clerks, etc as Julie suggests in case and I say in case because if you are still well enough to deal with these people then how do you know that you will really want to go through with it when the time comes?

There is the famous case of the women in Australia a few years ago who felt obliged to go through it as a statement with Dr Death and when the autopsy was done she wasn't dying at all!

The law should be as minimally involved as possible in our last days except as a form of protection.

 

[Julia]

Happy:

Let's hope human morality will not descend to the level you have suggested at any time in the future. We can probably agree that the question of people being involuntarily considered for "death row" is not a concern at this stage!

Visual, I can completely appreciate your concerns in principle, but perhaps you haven't given enough thought to my suggestion that intensive interviewing would be carried out with anyone requesting euthanasia, and that such questioning would include the family. Any competent psychiatrist should be able to determine whether the wish to die was genuinely held by the patient and not influenced by others.

Presently we are making people endure painful and undignified slow deaths simply because we are afraid of some remotely possible repercussions of carefully legislated voluntary euthanasia.

If you were to apply that principle across all areas, then you could say that we shouldn't, e.g. have a social security system because some people might abuse it. That's not a very good example but I think you'll understand what I mean.

I've said before that I absolutely respect the right of any individual to believe in whatever sort of religious concept they like - God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell.
And no one is suggesting that people for whom voluntary euthanasia is an unacceptable solution, should be denied all the palliative care they ever want.
I am happy for my tax dollars to be spent on caring for people who want to die at what they consider to be "God's will".

But I do have a problem with those people making decisions that I should be forced to do the same. I don't want to deny them what they want, so why should they want to deny me what I want?

Julia

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Julia

I'm not sure what you are getting at with:

But I do have a problem with those people making decisions that I should be forced to do the same. I don't want to deny them what they want, so why should they want to deny me what I want?

I could be wrong, but my interpretation of your statement is that you feel that people should be allowed to do whatever they personally feel is the right thing to do irrespective of the law of the land.

Taken to the nth degree that would imply that if someone felt it was right to punish someone ,say for robbing their house, colliding with their car etc etc, by killing them then they should be allowed to do it. Whether we like it or not, we are all obliged to abide by the laws of the land and I don't see the laws on euthanasia changing any time soon.

If you feel so strongly about it, why not approach your MP about it or stand for parliament yourself........but imo, if a referendum was held today on whether to legalise euthanasia I would definitely vote no and the fact that there is strong resistance in general to legalising it suggests to me that the overwhelming majority of the population would also vote against it.

Good luck

cheers

bullmarket

 

[visual]

Visual, I can completely appreciate your concerns in principle, but perhaps you haven't given enough thought to my suggestion that intensive interviewing would be carried out with anyone requesting euthanasia, and that such questioning would include the family. Any competent psychiatrist should be able to determine whether the wish to die was genuinely held by the patient and not influenced by others.


Julia

Julia, you are assuming competent will mean someone who cares,sorry my personal experience dictates that people simply dont care,and if they do care then they are simply swallowed by the people around them until they have to decide is this really worth it,and maybe I should concentrate on changing something I can.I know,sounding a bit bitter and twisted at the moment... one of those days,sorry.

 

[bullmarket]

I agree with you visual

Imo it would be too easy for family and/or friends, especially if they were good at hiding their true emotions and intentions, to play the sympathy/hardship card infront of a psychiatrist or whoever, to hopefully con them into granting them their wishes.

It goes back to my challenging Happy or anyone else who supports euthanasia to come up with suggestions that would guarantee that mistakes would not be made let alone allowing someone to get away with legalised murder for their own personal/financial gains.....and so far absolutely no-one at all has come up with anything ...and I doubt very much anyone ever will..

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Prospector]

Re: Suicide and Vonuntary Euthanasia

4. Children. I contend that it is physically impossible for anyone to simultaneously care for those approaching death and also look after children at the same time. I also contend that doing so is immoral in terms of the psychological impact on the children and the reality that they will have their childhood cut very short.

WHile I agree with most of your post, I disagree with your idea about the impact of a family death on children. My MIL died with cancer being cared for in her home by me and nurses - I had a four year old at the time. Yes it was damnably difficult but not impossible, and my four year old, who saw his grandmother (and as a teeenager, his Grandpa) on the day of their deaths has an acceptance of death as an inevitable part of life.

For me, there is no way I want to end up in a nursing home, being spoon fed, dribbling away, having to be washed by someone on a permanent basis, and in pain. No dignity, no life. I have yet to sort out how I will fix that up, but it should be my right alone to choose the manner of my death when life has no more to permanently (ie it is NEVER going to improve) offer me.

Billy Connelly did a great scene about this and white bread - the moral being why sacrifice eating white bread if you love it, just to try to extend your life by two years when your life at that time is about being spoon fed at the age of 84! Enjoy life now

 

[Prospector]

when you make this thing into law it will always be abused.I dont trust people,with good reason.

Yes, have to agree with that too - and I am paranoid too because I refuse to put organ donor on my drivers licence as I dont want to be labelled as a donor. However, if my family after discussion with my friends who are Doctors, feel there is no hope, then I would be happy for this to happen.

Yep, I dont trust the system either!

 

[Happy]

Many people feel that way as in quote below -

there is no way I want to end up in a nursing home, being spoon fed, dribbling away, having to be washed by someone on a permanent basis, and in pain. No dignity, no life. I have yet to sort out how I will fix that up, but it should be my right alone to choose the manner of my death when life has no more to permanently (ie it is NEVER going to improve) offer me.

Until we can make decision ourselves it is our decision, but as it is now, we cannot decide to peacefully slip away, if we don’t want to travel to Europe as it is now.

It can be done in Australia, if we decide to refuse take fluids and after 6 to 10 agonising days in excruciating thirst we can snub the authorities and go.

Bigger problem starts when we let it go too far, and we no longer function the way that we legally are able to make any decision, and our cognity will not function properly, when we don’t know we are alive.

Luckily whether we like it or not we have to die one day, despite all the medical help sitting there to prevent it from happening.

 

[Julia]

I'm not sure what you are getting at with:

But I do have a problem with those people making decisions that I should be forced to do the same. I don't want to deny them what they want, so why should they want to deny me what I want?

I could be wrong, but my interpretation of your statement is that you feel that people should be allowed to do whatever they personally feel is the right thing to do irrespective of the law of the land.

On the contrary. I think the law should be changed to allow any person whose quality of life had become intolerable to choose the time of their dying.
If it has been determined that they are dying anyway, why should they be forced to endure ongoing pain, loss of dignity and independence, merely to satisfy the preferences of people who think they should await "God's Will" or whatever.

Bullmarket, can you please say exactly what purpose you feel is served by forcing someone who wants to die, and who has been determined to be rational in that wish, to continue living? I simply don't understand why you feel this should happen so would genuinely appreciate your explaining.

I've already said that I (and I'm sure other proponents of voluntary euthanasia) have no wish to influence your capacity to die as you wish.
What I don't get is why you endorse the current laws which dictate that people who wish to end their intolerable suffering should not be permitted to do so. Why do you want to dictate what others do?

My late father lived a full and independent life into his 80's. He mowed his own lawns and cared for a large garden including dozens of fruit trees which were his passion. He suddenly developed an acute medical condition, required surgery and subsequently was admitted to a nursing home. From being a fully functioning individual, he became dependent, and in constant pain and embarrassment. He was acutely miserable and repeatedly asked me to assist him to end his life. For obvious reasons, I could not assist.

Eventually, after a couple of months he was found dead on the beach just down from the nursing home having drowned himself. When I identified the body he was badly injured from being thrown against the rocks and coral.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would suggest he or anyone else should have to die in this way when they have reached to stage where their life has become to them completely intolerable. Such dependence and pain may be acceptable to some. But no one can be the judge of what is acceptable for any other human being.

Julia

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Julia

I have already answered the questions you asked here in my posts in the RU486 thread and in this thread and so I believe you are actually already aware of why I am pro-life and anti-abortion and anti euthanasia....and so I'm not sure why you are asking me to re-hash what I have already posted.

But if you are genuinely interested in my reasons then the time it took you to type up your previous post would have been more than enough time to search my posts in this and the RU486 thread to refresh your memory.

You didn't agree with my views in the RU486 thread, and that is fine by me as everyone is entitled to their own views and to make their own choices.

I just posted my views here and in the RU486 thread and gave my supporting reasons......I can't be any fairer than that.....so we'll just have to agree to disagree like we did on RU486

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Julia]

Hi Julia

I have already answered the questions you asked here in my posts in the RU486 thread and in this thread and so I believe you are actually already aware of why I am pro-life and anti-abortion and anti euthanasia....and so I'm not sure why you are asking me to re-hash what I have already posted.

But if you are genuinely interested in my reasons then the time it took you to type up your previous post would have been more than enough time to search my posts in this and the RU486 thread to refresh your memory.

You didn't agree with my views in the RU486 thread, and that is fine by me as everyone is entitled to their own views and to make their own choices.

I just posted my views here and in the RU486 thread and gave my supporting reasons......I can't be any fairer than that.....so we'll just have to agree to disagree like we did on RU486

cheers

bullmarket

No, bullmarket, sorry that's a total cop-out. I have asked very specifically what purpose you feel is served by forcing a dying person to continue their existence when they want to peacefully end that suffering.

You have not answered this specific question either in this or any other thread. I am not being disingenuous here: I am really trying to understand what people with your religious beliefs feel is the point of prolonging suffering unnecessarily.

Julia

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Julia

I don't think it's a cop out at all. I posted my views on pro-life, anti-abortion/euthanasia with supporting reasons in the RU486 thread and in this thread which take into account the scenario you posted.

It appears to me that you are not accepting them as valid responses to your questions...and if that is the case then so be it.

You also seem to be upset that I don't directly answer your specific questions and yet you are being hypocritical because I haven't seen a reply from you regarding the specific challenge I posted earlier in this thread to all those that support voluntary euthanasia...and you appear to be supporting voluntary euthanasia

If you want me to take you seriously then you'll have to firstly answer my specific questions first, and you haven't done that in this thread yet.

cheers

bullmarket

 

[Julia]

Hi Julia

I don't think it's a cop out at all. I posted my views on pro-life, anti-abortion/euthanasia with supporting reasons in the RU486 thread and in this thread which take into account the scenario you posted.

It appears to me that you are not accepting them as valid responses to your questions...and if that is the case then so be it.

You also seem to be upset that I don't directly answer your specific questions and yet you are being hypocritical because I haven't seen a reply from you regarding the specific challenge I posted earlier in this thread to all those that support voluntary euthanasia...and you appear to be supporting voluntary euthanasia

If you want me to take you seriously then you'll have to firstly answer my specific questions first, and you haven't done that in this thread yet.

cheers

bullmarket

I give up! Trying to have a genuinely thoughtful discussion with you is less rewarding than talking to a tape recorder.

My thanks to all those members who have offered their responses with such clearly thought out reasoning.

Julia

 

[bullmarket]

no problem Julia

but you would have much more chance of me taking you seriously if you practised what you preached by answering questions I pose to you, as I did earlier in this thread, before becoming frustrated at my not answering your specific questions directly.

another option you have if you have a problem with my posts is to put me on your ignore list like I suggested to you some time ago....simple really

cheers

bullmarket

 

[The Mint Man]

My opinion is fairly clear cut, I do support it.
Why?
well, if someone is in that much pain and it is obviously affecting their quality of life to the point that all they do is lie around looking sickly then yes I do support it in that case. However they must have the capacity to make this decision.
I agree with others that have said that there should be a number of professionals that assess the persons condition and if they have made the correct decision, to die.

on another note:
Bull market,
If one of your family members (say your mum or children) was in a bad car accident ending up on life support, and the doctors told you that there was extremely little chance that your loved one would wake (The machine essentialy keeping them alive) However if they ever did wake they would have severe brain damage on top of the missing legs.
would you turn it off?

 

[bullmarket]

Hi Mint Man

Firstly I'm not sure why you are directing your question to me personally and not also to others in here who expressed views against euthanasia.

Secondly, I said to Julia that I saw her as being hypocritical by expecting me to answer her questions when she was not prepared to answer the question I posed earlier to all who support voluntary euthanasia....and I see you doing exactly the same thing as well now

If you are genuinely interested in my answer and if you want me to take you seriously why not go back in this thread and first answer the question I asked to all those who support voluntary euthanasia otherwise you are just wasting my time expecting me to answer your question when you are clearly not willing to answer mine first atm

cheers

bullmarket

 

[The Mint Man]

I am directing it to you as you want to be or at least seem to be the authority on your side of the fence!

Also my last question had nothing to do with euthanasia I was simply asking you what you would do in that situation.

 

[The Mint Man]

Bull market,
I am having trouble finding a question mark in any of your posts which would suggest that you havn't actually asked a question.
Could you please refresh my memory? what was the question again?