Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia

[So_Cynical]

I'd like a bottle of Nembutal ready for when the time comes , I will decide my exit .
Not to keen to go to Mexico to get any , but would consider paying top dollar for getting some in the near future .

Stupid stupid stupid ''' when you can take your old dog thats suffering incurable pain down to the local vet for a shot of Nembutal but Can't ask your Doc for same !

Notice the price was only $30 US a bottle in Mexico back in 07 , check it out now .

Coincidentally i had a look a few weeks ago...something like 600 a vile/bottle i think...and the
fine for illegal importation into Australia was 200K from memory.

 

[Bobby]

Coincidentally i had a look a few weeks ago...something like 600 a vile/bottle i think...and the
fine for illegal importation into Australia was 200K from memory.

Yep that sounds about right , seems the Mexicans have noticed how desperate the Aussies are

As for the fine , who gives a sh*t about that when all your thinking about is a peaceful exit ?

 

[Julia]

Yep that sounds about right , seems the Mexicans have noticed how desperate the Aussies are

As for the fine , who gives a sh*t about that when all your thinking about is a peaceful exit ?

The problem is, Bobby, that along with the fine, usually between $300 - $400, they confiscate the Nembutal. So your plans for a peaceful exit have failed.

Phillip Nitschke discussed this in detail at his meeting.

It can also be bought in a few other countries.

It's fraught with potential problems. He discussed other methods/drugs because of the difficulties of bringing Nembutal back into the country.

 

[Calliope]

The following letter appeared in The Australian today.

YOUR report ("Alarm as death pacts on rise”, 16/7) of how the eminent conductor Edward Downes and his terminally ill wife, accompanied by their two children, travelled from England to the Dignitas suicide clinic in Switzerland where they were assisted to die, gives encouragement not alarm to supporters of voluntary euthanasia in Australia.

My wife Dorothy and I have enjoyed long, good and happy lives together and are aware that they are soon coming to an end. I’m 83 and Dorothy will be 80 in September. We both have ongoing health difficulties and inevitable ageing difficulties and we have talked about the Swiss option and whether we should seek it out and have that small amount of dignity in death that it offers while it is still open to us, as Edward and Joan Downes did, but why should we have to go to Switzerland? Suicide itself has not been a crime in Australia for years.

What alarms us is the arrogance of those who insist on the right to impose their views on others in a field of belief such as this; to tell others, such as me and my wife, what we should or should not do.
Kep Enderby
Balmain, NSW

Kep Enderby held several ministries in the Whitlam government, including Attorney General. He was also a Justice in the NSW Supreme Court from 1982.to 1992.

 

[Knobby22]

You have got to admire Edward Downes for this.

This is the type of suicide that you can't criticise. Well done!

 

[nunthewiser]

You have got to admire Edward Downes for this.

This is the type of suicide that you can't criticise. Well done!

WTF!!!!


bullsheet !

they went with there kids and had a mass suicide?? there kids also ?

if this is the case u guys are bleedin off ya rockers if you think this is to be applauded

please forgive the outburst if it was just the oldies that decided to die as im merely reading that news article posted here and do not know the facts

BUT if its true that there children joined in the killoff i find it totally sick and think its VERY VERY VERY bloody wrong

 

[awg]

Hi Nun,

u can relax, they were elderly and married 54 yrs

the "kids" are alright

 

[Calliope]

http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-edward-downes15-2009jul15,0,4324364.story

The longtime BBC Philharmonic and Royal Opera conductor, known for championing British composers, and his wife died at an assisted-suicide clinic in Switzerland. Both were ailing.

July 15, 2009

British maestro Edward Downes, who conducted the BBC Philharmonic and the Royal Opera but struggled in recent years as his hearing and sight failed, died Friday along with his wife at an assisted-suicide clinic in Switzerland. He was 85.

Their children said Tuesday that the couple died "peacefully and under circumstances of their own choosing" at a Zurich clinic run by the group Dignitas.

"After 54 happy years together, they decided to end their own lives rather than continue to struggle with serious health problems," said a statement from the couple's son and daughter, Caractacus and Boudicca.

The statement said Downes, who became Sir Edward when he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II in 1991, had become almost blind and increasingly deaf. His 74-year-old wife, Joan, was a former dancer, choreographer and television producer who had devoted years to working as his assistant. British newspapers reported that she had been diagnosed with cancer.

 

[nunthewiser]

Hi Nun,

u can relax, they were elderly and married 54 yrs

the "kids" are alright

yeah well thats cool with me , if they wanna end it together , fair enough , i was a little bit concerned that the kids were going to also

 

[Happy]

...

It can also be bought in a few other countries.

It's fraught with potential problems. He discussed other methods/drugs because of the difficulties of bringing Nembutal back into the country.

I wander how hard is it to make?
Possibly another line of income for certain groups of underworld.

 

[Julia]

Happy, I expect if it was easy and straightforward, someone would be doing it here. Easier to get it from a vet than a doctor.

 

[Julia]

You have got to admire Edward Downes for this.

This is the type of suicide that you can't criticise. Well done!

The capacity to die in this way is all many people of Mr Downes age want.
At that stage of their lives, people should not have to travel to the other side of the world and die away from everything familiar.

 

[Knobby22]

The capacity to die in this way is all many people of Mr Downes age want.
At that stage of their lives, people should not have to travel to the other side of the world and die away from everything familiar.

I have changed my views through this thread and maybe the Dignitis centre is a good model.

If we had separate places set up for suicide in Australia with proper arrangements and staff such as the Dignitis centre then this would, for me, resolve many of the negatives I can see with practising Euthanasia.

We would probably ruin it with red tape in this country however and have people filling their last months doing forms.

I know that in India there is a place you can go to when you know you are going to die soon. Though they don't help you on the way, that place is also successful and popular.

 

[Chris45]

Re Garpal Gumnut’s post #260:
I remember hearing a few years ago about a US nurse who had tattooed on her arm, “No life support, pain relief only”.

Recently I asked my doctor if that would work here. (He’s probably got me marked down as a suicide risk now.)

He said similar to what your ambo friend said and that the medics would ignore it because it might have been done while drunk or something.

I asked him, “What about a wristband?”

He said that might work because it would be a conscious decision to wear the wristband each day, but the paramedics are still required to resuscitate and stabilize the patient so that the medics can properly assess the situation.

If I’m wearing the wristband and unconscious and seriously mangled in a car accident and my life is slowly ebbing away, as per "God’s will", I think the last thing I want is for someone to interfere with the process and stabilize me so I can spend my remaining days as a dribbling half-dead quadriplegic in a wheelchair or something. (No offence meant to all those happy life-loving quadriplegics.)

How can we stop the medical profession from interfering with our wishes to be allowed to die when our number comes up?

 

[Chris45]

Recently I saw a 2004 documentary on ABC1 titled “Mademoiselle and the Doctor”. It was about a French born West Australian academic, Lisette Nigot, who terminated her life after deciding she did not want to live beyond 80 years of age, when she felt her mind and body would start to deteriorate. If you missed it you can download the DivX copy via uTorrent.

She was in good health and apparently not depressed but she feared that if she waited any longer she might not have the ability to suicide when the time came, because of our restrictive laws, so she felt compelled to make a “preemptive strike”.

In her final statement she wrote, “Since lawful assistance to die at one’s chosen moment is not accepted in this cowardly restrictive society, I am taking the matter into my own hands.”

It’s just pathetic that our gutless politicians refuse to face up to the issue and allow people to decide their own fate, and force them to take actions such as this. Instead, they take the easy path and pass legislation to ban the publication of material that could be considered incitement to suicide, and try to censor the internet so people can’t access the information they want.

 

[veni_vedi_vici]

Hi,

I think that Euthanasia should be made legal within Australia but with very strict legal guidlines. In saying this, however, there is really more than one side to the argument which makes implementing the laws rather problematic. If Euthanasia was made legal within Australia I believe it would open up loopholes within our legal system, as not everyone is nice and caring within our society.

No sane politician either would pass statutes allowing Euthanasia as they would risk losing a large percentage of their votes from the church who play an influential and rather crucial role in politics and who condemn 'direct Euthanasia'.

Lastly, something which i'm not sure has been mentioned yet, but the psychological effects that will possibly burden the individual who is complicit in the taking of their friend or family members life.

I know this has been a rather short response to such a contentious issue but I did not really have time to go into any depth.

In the near future, however, I dont see Euthanasia being made legal within the confines of the Australian legal system because of the many disadvantages associated with it.

Veni

 

[Julia]

Re Garpal Gumnut’s post #260:
I remember hearing a few years ago about a US nurse who had tattooed on her arm, “No life support, pain relief only”.

Recently I asked my doctor if that would work here. (He’s probably got me marked down as a suicide risk now.)

He said similar to what your ambo friend said and that the medics would ignore it because it might have been done while drunk or something.

I asked him, “What about a wristband?”

He said that might work because it would be a conscious decision to wear the wristband each day, but the paramedics are still required to resuscitate and stabilize the patient so that the medics can properly assess the situation.

If I’m wearing the wristband and unconscious and seriously mangled in a car accident and my life is slowly ebbing away, as per "God’s will", I think the last thing I want is for someone to interfere with the process and stabilize me so I can spend my remaining days as a dribbling half-dead quadriplegic in a wheelchair or something. (No offence meant to all those happy life-loving quadriplegics.)

How can we stop the medical profession from interfering with our wishes to be allowed to die when our number comes up?

Completely agree, Chris. The best we can do in Australia is to have a document which is variously called a "Living Will" or an "Advance Health Directive", depending on which State you live in.

I'm only familiar with the Advance Health Directive which applies in Qld.
This is a legally binding document which you fill out in conjunction with your doctor who attests to your capacity to make the decisions referred to in the document.

You can, e.g. cover the situation such as you referred to above, i.e. that your life is not to be saved if this will result in your being quadriplegic (or any other stipulation that is unacceptable to you).

However, I've heard of instances where doctors have ignored these documents or have claimed ignorance of their existence.

If you're in a car accident, it's pretty unlikely that you will have your AHDwith you. I carry with me in my wallet a card which attests briefly to my wishes and stipulates that the AHD must be consulted before engaging in any treatment. A copy is on file at the local hospital.

Obviously whoever is closest to you needs to be aware of the existence of such a document and be prepared to advocate on your behalf in the event of a serious event.

Recently I saw a 2004 documentary on ABC1 titled “Mademoiselle and the Doctor”. It was about a French born West Australian academic, Lisette Nigot, who terminated her life after deciding she did not want to live beyond 80 years of age, when she felt her mind and body would start to deteriorate. If you missed it you can download the DivX copy via uTorrent.

She was in good health and apparently not depressed but she feared that if she waited any longer she might not have the ability to suicide when the time came, because of our restrictive laws, so she felt compelled to make a “preemptive strike”.

In her final statement she wrote, “Since lawful assistance to die at one’s chosen moment is not accepted in this cowardly restrictive society, I am taking the matter into my own hands.”

It’s just pathetic that our gutless politicians refuse to face up to the issue and allow people to decide their own fate, and force them to take actions such as this. Instead, they take the easy path and pass legislation to ban the publication of material that could be considered incitement to suicide, and try to censor the internet so people can’t access the information they want.

The case of Lisette was discussed at length during Philip Nitschke's workshop.
Clearly, an intelligent, thoughtful woman whose decision made complete sense.

 

[darkside]

Recently I saw a 2004 documentary on ABC1 titled “Mademoiselle and the Doctor”. It was about a French born West Australian academic, Lisette Nigot, who terminated her life after deciding she did not want to live beyond 80 years of age, when she felt her mind and body would start to deteriorate. If you missed it you can download the DivX copy via uTorrent.

She was in good health and apparently not depressed but she feared that if she waited any longer she might not have the ability to suicide when the time came, because of our restrictive laws, so she felt compelled to make a “preemptive strike”.

In her final statement she wrote, “Since lawful assistance to die at one’s chosen moment is not accepted in this cowardly restrictive society, I am taking the matter into my own hands.”

It’s just pathetic that our gutless politicians refuse to face up to the issue and allow people to decide their own fate, and force them to take actions such as this. Instead, they take the easy path and pass legislation to ban the publication of material that could be considered incitement to suicide, and try to censor the internet so people can’t access the information they want.

Chris45, i also watched that program and my greatest fear is definitely not death , but the act of dying in pain and without dignity chills me to the bone.

What i got out of it was , The definition of Voluntary is acting at one’s own choice. Euthanasia means a good death

On behalf of all those that are suffering or have suffered without the respite of a legally sanctioned Voluntary death, let it be known that we who have escaped the mind-numbing effects of religious mumbo-jumbo, hold all those blocking the introduction of Legal Voluntary Euthanasia in absolute contempt.

Legal Voluntary Euthanasia is a personal right of everyone in need, the most important and final right that any of us may one day have to call upon.

 

[Julia]

I think that Euthanasia should be made legal within Australia but with very strict legal guidlines. In saying this, however, there is really more than one side to the argument which makes implementing the laws rather problematic. If Euthanasia was made legal within Australia I believe it would open up loopholes within our legal system, as not everyone is nice and caring within our society.

No sane politician either would pass statutes allowing Euthanasia as they would risk losing a large percentage of their votes from the church who play an influential and rather crucial role in politics and who condemn 'direct Euthanasia'.

Well, the politicians who passed such a statute in the Northern Territory a decade ago seemed pretty sane to me. And that law had multiple safeguards and was working well. Then Kevin *****Andrews of the Howard government (a godbotherer of course) had to interfere and strip the Territory of its perfectly OK law.

You make a reasonable point about the church. However, that doesn't really stand up in the face of 80% of the population being in favour of voluntary euthanasia. It's far more about the religious convictions of individual politicians than a concern about the church as an institution.

One of the few pluses of Bob Brown and the Greens in general as far as I'm concerned is that they have a sensible view about voluntary euthanasia.
But I don't see either of the main parties coming to share this view in the immediate future.
Perhaps as the economic reality of all the ageing population dragging on the public purse begins to bite, some modification of the godbotherers' idealistic rubbish might occur.

Lastly, something which i'm not sure has been mentioned yet, but the psychological effects that will possibly burden the individual who is complicit in the taking of their friend or family members life.

Such complicity is fraught with the main problem of it being illegal to assist suicide in any way. It's possible for a life sentence to be imposed on conviction.

From a personal point of view, I'd have been far less adversely psychologically affected if I had been able to help in the suicides of two family members . When someone you love is in absolute desperation and distress, feeling helpless and unable to assist is simply devastating.

In the near future, however, I dont see Euthanasia being made legal within the confines of the Australian legal system because of the many disadvantages associated with it.

Veni

I agree that it's unlikely at least in the next decade.
What are the other 'disadvantages' you see associated with voluntary euthanasia?
Btw I think "voluntary" is an important descriptor. One of the hysterical claims that is made by opponents is that cliche about the 'slippery slope' wherein every second person over the age of 70 will automatically become a victim of the law if legislation is passed to allow voluntary euthanasia in limited circumstances.

 

[veni_vedi_vici]

Julia,

I'm sorry disadvantaged was really not the word i was looking for its more problematic.

Really under Rudd he wont legalise it or push to legalise it especially when you look at his own religious beliefs (you can make a loose assumtion as to what they may be as he is quite open about his religious views and beliefs).

In regards to the psychological burdens, i'm not criticising or taking anything away from ur statement, but you really cant know how it will effect you in the long term until you have done it, although everyone is unique. I do agree, however, that the psychological burdens whilst the person is ill are great (I have had a direct experience of this without going into to much detail I am 18 now and when i was 15 a member of my family was seriously ill and for the time i wasnt at school i would spend every waking moment with her even taking time off school to care for her. She eventually died and even though she wasnt in the state in which i would like to have remembered her in and even though she may have been in pain i cherished every last moment. selfish you may say, but not in my mind.), the pope has called for more rights be given to those in this position such as a mother with her new born baby taking time of work. I think this may be a good idea.

Lastly, i'm not sure out of this whether you have ascertained as to my position on voluntary Euthanasia. I am actually pro voluntary Euthanasia but only so far as it is enacted under very strict confines so as not to allow exploitation of the system.

Very kind regards to you Julia.

(on a lighter note, you dont happen to be a teacher do you?)

Veni