Students 'will never pay off HECS'

[bvbfan]

For those who have never attended uni, compulsory union fees are charged each year to fund a wide variety of support networks. Some of which include sporting facilities, libraries, welface officers, counselors, nurses, canteens etc.

No union fees or a user pay system would almost wipe out all of the above networks.

Does this then pose the question that Universities no longer provide such diverse cultural/educational environments/experience and then just become degree churning factories for the wealthy?

I work at a uni campus and I was having this talk with one of the ladies from a childcare centre there, if the VSU (voluntary student unionism) is passed then basically the childcare would go as it would not have the funds and also that would spend students with young kids out of the education system as the costs would be prohibitve for them to study...
Now who really wins is this case, I think it the long run it would be better for the parent(s) to study and be able to provide for their kids later on than living of welfare which is what will happen IMO if they don't continue studies.

As for my HECS debt, unless I get a job that pays me over the threshold (around 36,000 rising to 38000 next year I think) I am not going to pay back any of the debt, I simply can't afford to.

I see where all this education reforms is going, we'll end up like the US and have degrees that cost $100,000+ ...oh wait I think we already do (dentistry and I wouldn't be surprised if medicine wasn't around that)

 

[Happy]

Why so many of us do so much self-padding for having civilised discussion?

Isn’t it normal to have civilised discussion?

Does it mean that if I hang around long enough there will be some blood or verbal violence?

 

[mime]

Offer your services for NOTHING just to get in the door!

The only thing limiting peoples advancement in ANYTHING is YOURSELF.


Thank you thank you very much!!!

Nice call. Education is only half of what you need these days. Pratical skills such as people skills gained through experence is the second half.

I intend to go to uni next year however the course I intend to do is only 2 years fulltime. How high do you think hex will be on that?

Oh and what does VSU pay for? I remember seeing Miss Higgins for free at Uni of Syd at the expense of the union.

I'll make a bet with you that the uni's get plenty of funding they just(like all government agencies) miss spend it.

Didn't Gough Whittlam make uni free and because of decisions like this the country went into resession or something? People say he was a great guy(Mark Latham) but what about the famililes that lost their savings and homes because of his irrersponsible actions?

Sorry about my crappy spelling. I think ACA are on to something

 

[Smurf1976]

Why so many of us do so much self-padding for having civilised discussion?

Isn’t it normal to have civilised discussion?

Does it mean that if I hang around long enough there will be some blood or verbal violence?

Education is one of those emotive issues that can really get opposing sides fired up. It tends to provoke similar emotional responses like abortion, forests, uranium mining, gay marriage etc. Why? I'm not completely sure but education is just one of those "touchy" issues so it's good that we're all being sensible about it here.

 

[tech/a]

mime

Ive seen this in action.

I managed to get the local pub interested in talking to both my kids.
Kris doing Doctorate and Nat who works as a secretary.
I suggested they offer a few free shifts.

They did.
Over the next 2 yrs Kris managed the bottleshop for weekend shifts at $20/hr and Nat ended up nights in one of the Bars at $18/hr.
sure I had a little influence but the bottom line was they were able to perform and gave the employer an opportunity to look at them.

We should perhaps have a hints section for commonsence methods of personal advancement!!
Let a few schools know about it and then see if we cant get a degree formulated----would get you further I'll bet than some of the ARTS degrees students take!

 

[krisbarry]

mime

Ive seen this in action.

I managed to get the local pub interested in talking to both my kids.
Kris doing Doctorate and Nat who works as a secretary.
I suggested they offer a few free shifts.

They did.
Over the next 2 yrs Kris managed the bottleshop for weekend shifts at $20/hr and Nat ended up nights in one of the Bars at $18/hr.
sure I had a little influence but the bottom line was they were able to perform and gave the employer an opportunity to look at them.

We should perhaps have a hints section for commonsence methods of personal advancement!!
Let a few schools know about it and then see if we cant get a degree formulated----would get you further I'll bet than some of the ARTS degrees students take!

Great thoughts tech/a, my parents always encouraged me to work from a young age too. My brother and I with the help of my dad grew plants and sold them to the local plant nursery.

My dad later got me a job at the local video store.

I then joined up with my brother and sister working in a local supermarket.

Work ethics have always been a part of my life.

I worked right throughout my highschool years and all the way through uni, working in pubs, bars, waiting etc. Bloody hard work and many late nights.

The wheels fell off for me when I finshed my degree, volunteered my time in many working environments only to be told that they were either sacking people or no jobs existsed.

It was not my attitude, or work skills, as I work very hard at anything I do, it is just a very cut-throat industry with very little jobs and many out of work artists etc. Had I known this when I was 17, I would have not studied it.

But at 17, I had never even thought of the high unemployment levels in all art related jobs. No career counciler told me that they just encouraged me to follow my dreams/passions/goals. BIG MISTAKE!!!

I spent over 4 years on unemployment, and working casual jobs to make end meet.

My point is why does the government fund usless degrees, where very little jobs exist.

I am sure we all know of an out of work artist.

 

[tech/a]

Hmm check your private mails Kris!

 

[Julia]

The side link in this discussion into school holiday jobs etc reminded me of my first holiday job. It was in NZ before Post Offices had much in the way of automation. At age 15, I spent six weeks 8am to 5pm Monday to Friday standing at a bench stamping the postmark on every letter that was posted.
It taught me a bit about patience and controlling boredom.

Any job at any age is the source of some learning. I don't care if a kid stacks shelves at Woolworths, he/she is learning something about self discipline, the need for social skills, etc and if they demonstrate a good attitude chances are that will lead to a better job. All this is good preparation for university study if that's what is the ultimate aim.

Julia

 

[Kauri]

I have resisted throwing in my 2 bobs worth so far, but I have spied a vacant soapbox... :
When I left school I took up a trade, looking to gain qualifications which would see me employable during my working life. In the first year of my apprenticeship I worked pretty much as an unskilled labourer, my mate from school worked at the same place as a labourer and earned a lot more than I did. In the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years I worked at the level or above of a semi-skilled labourer, again at a discount pay wise to my mate, in my 5th and final year I worked basically as a tradesman in all but name, at just about at the same rate of pay as my mate who was now working as my trades assistant. Basically, I paid for my qualifications by working for my employer at pay rates lower than the rates applicable for the work I was doing. If I had chosen to go to university over the workplace to gain qualifications, why should that be free? Later on, to make myself more employable I looked at adding to my qualifications i.e. gaining an Internal Combustion Engine Drivers ticket, for which I had to pay for upfront. If I had decided to enhance my employability by studying Ancient Greek Mythology at university instead, why should that be free whilst my engine drivers ticket isn't? I believe the earnings threshold allows most people a chance at tertiary education, it is the individuals choice as to whether they study for future employment, or instead to be a highly sought after Greek mythologist.
Better jump off the soapbox now, before the rotten eggs and tomatoes start coming my way.

 

[krisbarry]

Yes Kauri, valid points also. I somewhat agree.

I think that the government should look very closely at the inconsistancy within the education system, both internally and externally. It also needs to take a broader approach, thinking outside the 4 walls of an instition.

Why is some free, others partially funded, and some no funding at all.

Some form of discounted fee structure should be standard across the board to better oneself no matter the course, institution, level of training etc.

** The goverenment should also study job growth rates and sectors and apply a more rigid funding cut or increase depending on employment uptake.

 

[Happy]

From ABC, November 10, 2006

International students turning to sex work to pay fees


By Jasmine Kostas for 'AM'

Some international students in Australia are being forced to work in the sex industry to pay for their degrees.
The National Union of Students says the women end up in the sex industry because their visas restrict them to working 20 hours a week during any one semester, and they need high-paying jobs to survive.
Local student Rebecca, who is studying for her Masters in sexual health, says she found it tough to make ends meet, trying to balance working part-time and keeping up with her studies.
"I found that instead of working 30 hours a week, at $10 an hour and being taxed on that money, I could earn that money in one shift, a shift at a sex services premises, and it allowed me more time to study," she said.
She says that it is even harder for international students.

Dr Sarah Lantz, from the University of Melbourne, prepared a report on student participation in the sex industry.
The report looked at 40 students working in the Melbourne sex industry, over a period of four years.
Dr Lantz says one of the main issues was finance, particularly for international students.
"We had a range of domestic students and international students," she said.
"Domestic students were working their way through the sex industry for financial reasons, and international students for the same reasons, except for the fact that they actually had to come up with a lot more money given the fact that they had to pay up-front fees and so forth.
"So for them they were mainly engaged in the kind of high-risk sex industry and that's largely because they needed huge amounts of money."

Fees for university degrees have risen sharply in recent years.
The average cost of a medical degree for a full-fee paying Australian student is around $38,000. International students doing medicine pay even more.

Surely some turn to crime and possibly drugs or another illegal ativity to pay student fees.

We discussed topic extensively, but if one wants something that cannot afford, finds an excuse to do something that –normally- wouldn’t do.

Another solution could be work full time and study part time, or forget uni for now or for good.

 

[Julia]

Surely some turn to crime and possibly drugs or another illegal ativity to pay student fees.

We discussed topic extensively, but if one wants something that cannot afford, finds an excuse to do something that –normally- wouldn’t do.

Another solution could be work full time and study part time, or forget uni for now or for good.

Happy,
I can see your point, but also can, sadly, see why the students would do this. They can earn huge amounts of money in a short time. Hard to see though that the experience wouldn't have some sort of emotional effect on them, even if they manage to stay physically safe.

Julia

 

[Kauri]

Happy,
Local student Rebecca, who is studying for her Masters in sexual health, says she found it tough to make ends meet, trying to balance working part-time and keeping up with her studies.
"I found that instead of working 30 hours a week, at $10 an hour and being taxed on that money, I could earn that money in one shift, a shift at a sex services premises, and it allowed me more time to study," she said.

Ironic,and sad.

 

[Happy]

I have a problem with mental adjustment and willingness to venture into –inappropriate- solutions as opposed to dignified.

-At all cost- mentality seems to be justification in itself.

And what next?

Our at -all costs students-, graduate and what morals do they bring into educated and noble World?

Anything goes! Crime? Corruption? Or blind eye to them?

 

[chops_a_must]

My HECS debt is well above $20,000 and climbing.

I went to TAFE whilst at uni, so I could work for myself, and pay my way through Uni.

I don't have a problem with this, because I plan to be at uni for a long time. So I do owe something.

What I do have a problem with is this; when baby boomer types tell me I should pay full fees, when they had to pay absolutely NOTHING for the exact same degree.

 

[macca]

Hi ya Chops,

I know it is often quoted as being true that BB did not pay uni fees, I am a baby boomer and if I wanted to go to uni I had to pay full fees up front before I could start.

Free Uni started in about 1975, BB time frame is 1946 to 1966, so about half of the BB did go to Uni free, us earlier ones missed out completely.

We did not get the option to "pay it off if when we got a good job".

When it was free, there were way too many lazy deadheads wasting everyones time and taking the places of those who really wanted to go.

I truly believe the current way is the best way, it tends to deter those who just don't want to get a job yet so they go to Uni. Yet it enables those with the ability to go to Uni to get their degree, then use the degree to earn a higher income to pay it off.

It is a much fairer way than when I was young.

 

[chops_a_must]

I understand that. In those days it was also much much easier to get scholarships.

I don't believe degrees should be totally free, but I do think fees are too high as they are at the moment. And the system is much fairer now than when it was reserved for the elite, although it is going that way again IMO.

They do need to do something about graduates who straight away go to live overseas, and never have to pay off their debts.

 

[macca]

In the sixties quite a few companies had uni trainees, you went to Uni part time and as long as you passed they paid the fees but you had to sign some kind of bond/contract to work there for 5 years after you graduated or pay them back the money for your course.

Imagine the screaming now if you could not leave Oz for 5 years after graduating, unless your HECS was paid in full

 

[chops_a_must]

That sounds like what they do with some med students already.

 

[son of baglimit]

this has been covered in a roundabout sort of way, but i'm just gonna state some facts for those who werent aware - and from my sources thats most of the community.

you only pay off your HECS debt in 2 ways.........

1. making voluntary payments.
2. lodging a tax return which states your taxable income was over the relevant threshold for that particular year.

lets assume then you never make a voluntary payment, and you never have taxable income greater than the threshold (06-07 around 38k). this simply means you will NEVER reduce your HECS debt.

what happens to the debt ? how many knew it dies with you ?
it doesnt line up with other creditors looking for piece of your estate. it simply goes away (at the moment anyway - the govt might change that one day)
in the meantime anyone out there with a grandparent bored with life, get them to enrol in a uni course, put it on hecs and they'll never have to pay it, so long as their income stays below the threshold. or maybe youre in your last year of employment - consider a uni course to give you something to do.

p.s. a warning to those who salary sacrifice or have any other FBT event - this amount is added to your taxable income when calculating the threshold for hecs liability - so dont think salary sacrificing your way out of a hecs debt will fix this - it wont.

enjoy that course.