Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Sonray collapse

Laugh and a half isn't it? Some snippets from Sonray's PDS in relation to Contracts for Difference. Pretty similar to other PDS I've read by different providers. Not involved with this fiasco just always curious why people get involved in high octane rocket fuel.

4 Nature of Advice offered by Sonray

Sonray holds an AFSL Number 231151 and is authorised to provide the following services:

• to provide general and/or personal financial product advice in relation to, and to deal in,:
(i) deposit and payment products;
(ii) derivatives;
(iii) foreign exchange contracts;
(iv) debentures, stocks or bonds issued by a government;
(v) managed investment schemes including investor directed portfolio services;
(vi) securities; and
(vii) miscellaneous financial investment products limited to managed investment warrants and Managed Discretionary Account (MDA) services; and

• to make a market in derivatives; and

• to underwrite interests in managed investment schemes and issues of securities; and

• to provide certain custodial services;

to retail and wholesale clients.

[And that is all the License does folks and nothing more]

In general, we provide general advice and we neither collect, nor take into consideration, information regarding your financial circumstances and needs, and we recommend that you take all reasonable steps to fully understand the outcomes of specific derivatives products and strategies adopted in relation to utilising the general information provided by Sonray. You should obtain financial, legal, taxation and other professional advice. [And against that warning and recommendation did you? No? Oh well bad luck.]

Sonray’s powers in the event of default include the power to close out
positions and terminate your account

Sonray has extensive powers under the terms of the Application Terms & Condition 23 to take action in response to a range of default events. Sonray may terminate your account, and close out all or any of your CFD positions, including cancelling any outstanding orders. Further we may satisfy any obligation you have to Sonray out of any property, money or security belonging to you in Sonray’s custody.[Tch, tch. Nasty.]



6 What is a CFD

A CFD is an over-the-counter derivative product comprising an agreement under which one party is entitled to be paid an amount of money (profit), or has to pay an amount of money (loss) resulting from movements in the price or value of an underlying instrument or security (without actually owning that underlying instrument or security ) [And despite this some actually thought they really owned shares? Wow!]. This transaction concludes with the parties settling the difference between the purchase price and the sale price.

You do not trade through an Exchange and are not afforded the protections normally associated with exchange-traded derivatives, such as guarantee arrangements.

8. Sonray’s position in relation to CFDs

When dealing in CFDs, as with all over-the-counter derivatives, Sonray is a market maker, not a broker.

10.1 Dividends
If you hold an open long CFD position at the close of business on the day prior to the ex-dividend date to the underlying reference security, you will receive an amount equal to the ordinary cash dividend on that reference security (excluding imputation or franking credits). [So, Carlo, if you went for CFD's, you did NOT receive dividends but a cash equivalent AND you dipped out on the franking credits.]

27. Client Monies

All money deposited into your account by you or by a person acting on your behalf, or which is received by Sonray on your behalf, will be held by Sonray in one or more segregated accounts it must maintain pursuant to the Corporations Act. Please note that individual client accounts are not separated from each other, but may be co-mingled into one segregated account (which is separate to Sonray’s monies/assets). It is important to note that holding your money in such segregated account may not afford you absolute protection, and the purpose of the segregated account is to separate Client monies from Sonray monies. All Client monies are pooled together within the segregated account, therefore an individual Client’s balance may not be protected if there is a default by another Client that causes a loss to the overall segregated account balance. In order to minimise this risk, Sonray may use its own company funds to cover any Client balance shortfall that may be caused by a Client default in the short term. If there is a deficit in the segregated account and in the unlikely [Ho, ho, ho] event that Sonray becomes insolvent before it makes up the deficit in the segregated account, then you will be an unsecured creditor of Sonray in relation to the balance of any monies owing to you from the segregated account. [Well, you cannot say you were not warned.]

Have fun fighting the courts and other various parties attempting to get your money back. You really do need to enjoy litigation to undertake that task.
 
Laugh and a half isn't it? Some snippets from Sonray's PDS in relation to Contracts for Difference. Pretty similar to other PDS I've read by different providers. Not involved with this fiasco just always curious why people get involved in high octane rocket fuel.

While all the facts you've laid out are correct it seems a bit crude to laugh at those who found themselves in this unfortunate situation?

I hope Sonray account houlders can recover most if not all of the money owed to them...

Alledgedly they have 3000 accounts. Let's say average balance is $10K then that's $30m dollars. According to some report some trader blew a $6m hole in the accounts. So that's 20% loss and if you add some administrator costs... getting 70c back in the dollar might be an optimistic yet realistic outcome.
 
While all the facts you've laid out are correct it seems a bit crude to laugh at those who found themselves in this unfortunate situation?

I hope Sonray account houlders can recover most if not all of the money owed to them...

Alledgedly they have 3000 accounts. Let's say average balance is $10K then that's $30m dollars. According to some report some trader blew a $6m hole in the accounts. So that's 20% loss and if you add some administrator costs... getting 70c back in the dollar might be an optimistic yet realistic outcome.

Fair point, skc. I'm just getting a little tired of people continually blaming others for their predicament or expecting the Guv'ment or some other agency to protect them from themselves. Go in with the view that if it all blows up, you are the only one at fault and you will never be disappointed. These CFD providers are bookies. Nothing more, nothing less despite the glossy waffle which dragged the punters in.

As for the rogue trader that, apparently, has been discounted. The story is now that some "select" clients were in deep do doo's and the calls were covered back in 2007 (Yep, GFC territory) by various adjustments to the accounts. And the possible payout is now down to 25c to 30c.
 
As for the rogue trader that, apparently, has been discounted. The story is now that some "select" clients were in deep do doo's and the calls were covered back in 2007 (Yep, GFC territory) by various adjustments to the accounts. And the possible payout is now down to 25c to 30c.

Isn't the number 1 trading discipline money management and avoiding risk of ruin?

So you would expect that traders would look at the CFD provider's risk of ruin first?
 
It seems to me that CFD providors almost all have the same clause in their PDS's: MF Global, FP Markets, IG Markets, Interactive Brokers ( though held across several banks).

So, is there such a one as a CFD providor that segregates client's monies as their own (secured creditor)?
 
It seems to me that CFD providors almost all have the same clause in their PDS's: MF Global, FP Markets, IG Markets, Interactive Brokers ( though held across several banks).

So, is there such a one as a CFD providor that segregates client's monies as their own (secured creditor)?

Vwry Good point and even better question!! As far as I'm aware they are all the same but I'd love to be proved wrong.

Perhaps the only exception is Macquarie prime given that they use actual shares (as opposed to CFDs) but with similar facilities to CFD???
 
It seems to me that CFD providors almost all have the same clause in their PDS's: MF Global, FP Markets, IG Markets, Interactive Brokers ( though held across several banks).

So, is there such a one as a CFD providor that segregates client's monies as their own (secured creditor)?

hello,

yes good question $20shoes, very very interesting

thankyou
associate professor robots
 
A CFD is an over-the-counter derivative product comprising an agreement under which one party is entitled to be paid an amount of money (profit), or has to pay an amount of money (loss) resulting from movements in the price or value of an underlying instrument or security (without actually owning that underlying instrument or security ) [And despite this some actually thought they really owned shares? Wow!]. This transaction concludes with the parties settling the difference between the purchase price and the sale price.

You do not trade through an Exchange and are not afforded the protections normally associated with exchange-traded derivatives, such as guarantee arrangements.


10.1 Dividends
If you hold an open long CFD position at the close of business on the day prior to the ex-dividend date to the underlying reference security, you will receive an amount equal to the ordinary cash dividend on that reference security (excluding imputation or franking credits). [So, Carlo, if you went for CFD's, you did NOT receive dividends but a cash equivalent AND you dipped out on the franking credits.]

You are not quite correct Judd. Some people bought shares through Sonray; not CFDs, but real equites; and they were bought through regulated exchanges. Read my post of 28th June. These people's shares - real shares - were held in an omnibus account and NOT in the name of the client who bought and paid for them, and these shares are now apparently frozen. We are not talking about CFDs here.

Carlo may well have bought shares - real shares. It is not for you to dispute his claims because you clearly do not have all the facts at your disposal.
 
Why is it that some who seem to have nothing better to do than run up hundreds of posts on this forum take delight in the loss being suffered by so many victims of Sonray... they seem to have too much time on their hands...try to find something constructive to do with your life.

A good half of 4000 victims bought regular shares and were not playing the derivative game so condescendingly put down by those who would pretend to know so much.

Don’t be distracted by such twisted thinkers, focus on what is being done to us.

Sonray, obviously used the system to defraud innocent people who believed their PR. Worse yet we have Ferrier Hodgson profiting from the fraud as they divvy up the spoils.

What right does Ferrier Hodgson have to seize private property?


What right do all the regulatory agencies have to look the other way?

Australia has the most over-regulated, under-protected financial services industry in the western world.

Imagine you were in Sonray’s offices when Ferrier Hodgson came in and started grabbing everything in sight. Further suppose, in the stress of the moment, you left leaving your wallet, filled with cash behind and FH “froze”/seized that as well because....1) they could & 2) it was in the Sonray “crime scene”.

How is that any different than freezing client accounts set up with outside banks, supposedly protected from co-mingling and which were not disclosed to the client as at possible risk.

How is that any different than regular stocks purchased, supposedly in the clients’ name and being held by the executor used by Sonray....mostly Interactive Brokers & E*Trade Australia.

Answer: there is no difference....the seizure is one giant grab fest by the receiver using little more than their prestige to justify their “thief in the night”methodology.

And since this was a voluntary receivership, the details were worked out way in advance between Sonray and FH....long before the actual 22 June “freeze”. After all, Sonray “selected” their receiver...doesn’t it seem logical they would pick that which would be to their best interest.

And this nonsense about buyer beware, due diligence, failure to read/understand the PDS/disclosure documents....does it make sense that Sonray, who would shield a “rogue broker” and thus be desperately scrambling to replace misappropriated funds, would then turn around and properly follow the rules of disclosure.

Sonray was doing whatever it took to cover themselves and if a bunch of their clients got hurt in the process, ...well, investing carries risk.
Supposedly, that makes it all right.


On what authority does Ferrier Hodgson act in committing the seizure of private property...even the police have to have a specific warrant.

Join the class action suit being considered by Slater Gordon (who, unfortunately will get an equally large slice of the spoils right off the top) but demand of them and Ferrier Hodgson to justify by what right and whose authority can a private company, basically appointed by the confessed criminal, move in, take over and start seizing private property.
 
Why is it that some who seem to have nothing better to do than run up hundreds of posts on this forum take delight in the loss being suffered by so many victims of Sonray

A good half of 4000 victims bought regular shares and were not playing the derivative game so condescendingly put down by those who would pretend to know so much.
Vincente, sorry that I don't know anything about Sonray specifically, but I'm wondering why, if someone just wanted to buy and sell ordinary shares, they didn't choose to do it via one of the basic brokers like Comsec or E-trade?

Did Sonray offer some especially cheap brokerage? Other attractions?
 
Sonray Global Account

The Sonray Investors Action Group has formed. Link: http://sites.google.com/site/sonrayinvestorsactiongroup/

Here is a message I posted on the site:

Before I opened the Sonray Global Account, Sonray made the representations that funds and all property of the account is held with Interactive Brokers, that funds and all property of the account is segregated by Interactive Brokers under the rules and regulation governing Interactive Brokers, and that Sonray undertakes the agreement with Interactive Brokers that “L. SIPC: It is hereby agreed between Introducing Broker and Interactive that, solely for purposes of the "financial responsibility rules" of the SEC and Securities Investor Protection Act, the participants in the Consolidated Accounts shall be deemed "customers" of Interactive and not the Introducing Broker.” (INTERACTIVE BROKERS CONSOLIDATED ACCOUNT CLEARING AGREEMENT, link: https://www.interactivebrokers.com/...iew?doc=showConsolidatedClearingAgreement.jsp)

So Sonray Global Accounts should and have always been segregated. Sonray never has the legal right to co-mingle Sonray Global Accounts with other clients’ accounts.

The Terms and Conditions quoted by Ferrier Hodgson are significantly different from what I signed when I open my Sonray Global Accounts (one of my accounts is under Version 10 and I have the hard copy).

I am a member of Committee of Creditors and would like to hear more from follow Google Group members.
 
Scary stuff!

So what stops something similar happening to IB clients? AFAIK, when you buy shares with IB or transfer holdings to IB the shares are held by IB, not you.

What is the differences in how IB operates VS the likes of Sonray etc?
 
IB is regulated by US authorities and has the protection of SEC and SIPC. On the top that, IB has extra insurance for the accounts of clients.
 
IB is regulated by US authorities and has the protection of SEC and SIPC. On the top that, IB has extra insurance for the accounts of clients.

With what's happened in the US over the last couple of years - this doesn't fill me with confidence. Especially as any US regulatory body is not going to care at all about foreign investors.

malachii
 
Malachii

SEC has regulations over US brokerage firms including financial responsibility rules. SIPC is an insurance scheme for the client accounts of participating firms. SEC and SPIC have Reserve Formula imposed on brokers to ensure the safety of client accounts. There are no distinctions between US and foreign investors for this regard.
 
Malachii

SEC has regulations over US brokerage firms including financial responsibility rules. SIPC is an insurance scheme for the client accounts of participating firms. SEC and SPIC have Reserve Formula imposed on brokers to ensure the safety of client accounts. There are no distinctions between US and foreign investors for this regard.

Maybe ASIC should learn something from SEC?
 
As a Sonray investor, I am furious that my money will be used to pay for the illegal actions of Sonray founders Scott Murray and Russell Johnson. Not one cent of our accounts should be used to fill the hole they dug, nor the exhorbitant fees charged by Ferrier Hodgson to clean up this mess. Why shouldn't Murray and Johnson be accountable for all these costs? No doubt, they have it all squirreled away in hidden offshore accounts and family trusts belonging to their wives and children.
 
As a Sonray investor, I am furious that my money will be used to pay for the illegal actions of Sonray founders Scott Murray and Russell Johnson. Not one cent of our accounts should be used to fill the hole they dug, nor the exhorbitant fees charged by Ferrier Hodgson to clean up this mess. Why shouldn't Murray and Johnson be accountable for all these costs? No doubt, they have it all squirreled away in hidden offshore accounts and family trusts belonging to their wives and children.

Join the Sonray Investors Group: http://sites.google.com/site/sonrayi...rsactiongroup/ Lots of info and we are trying to fight back against both the original fraud of Sonray and now the seizure of our property by Ferrier Hodgson
 
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