Skilled Immigration Changes

[Happy]

Do you also consider the jews who came here escaping nazi germany to be "queue jumpers", its far easier and cheaper to come here legally rather than going through dodgy Indonesian people smugglers.
....

Because it is EXPRESS LINE, you pay but you are instantly here.

And side effect is that it makes our immigration a farce and our border control non-existent and Navy? Just escort service to Christmas Island.

In other words BIG JOKE, but we pay for it.

 

[Sidamo]

what kind of bullsh1t generalisation comment is that?

Brit/Paddy: hmm, Australia looks nice, speak English, similar culture to me and there's sun. Cool, I'll try that out. Hop on the plane, two days later you're drinking a beer, red as a beetroot on Bondi.
If you don't like it, or you get homesick, you jump on a plane and go home.

Boat Person: hand entire life savings to some dodgy bastard for a chance at a ticket on a ricketty boat which may or may not survive the passage to Oz, at which point you'll be locked up for a number of years. After which, if you're accepted you'll start at the bottom rung of a new society where you know no-one, the natives distrust you etc. etc. and you start building a new life from scratch. If you're not accepted, they send you back and now you're back where you started from, but broke and you have ro rebuild your life from scratch. If you really were a genuine refugee, but Oz sent you back anyway, at this point you may be dead.
Once in Oz, if you don't like it, or are homesick, tough ****, you almost certainly can't go back for a long time.

So, who do you think wants it more? Who has more at stake in moving to Australia? There's no more motivation than having burnt your bridges (or having had them burnt for you).

And for the record, I'm a Paddy. Moved here 10 years ago, did the residency/citizenship thing, missus is an Aussie and this is now my home. However, if I want to leave, I can. I can live practically anywhere in the world. The same applies to almost all Brits/Paddies. Why not head down to your local refugee centre and ask those you encounter what their options are?

 

[Happy]

Let me look at other possibility of:

...
Boat Person:

...

Trained in personal explosives person, sponsored to act as somebody who wants to start new life. Spreads hatred, organises small groups of special interests, or lays low as S L E E P E R.

So far, we were lucky as attempts were intercepted, but at what cost?
Police and all other staff involved in picking up bad things before they happen is additional tax on our life.

This is back door that due to new circumstances must be closed!

 

[Trembling Hand]

Let me look at other possibility of:

Trained in personal explosives person, sponsored to act as somebody who wants to start new life. Spreads hatred, organises small groups of special interests, or lays low as S L E E P E R.

So far, we were lucky as attempts were intercepted, but at what cost?
Police and all other staff involved in picking up bad things before they happen is additional tax on our life.

This is back door that due to new circumstances must be closed!

:bs:

 

[donkeykong]

This is back door that due to new circumstances must be closed!

The only way your going "close the back door" is to stop all civil wars, religious conflict and other things which causes one group of people to start butchering another group of people. Theres always going to be some strife somewhere in the world which causes people to flee, maybe one day it will be Australias turn and we'll see how the shoe fits when its on the other foot.

Trained in personal explosives person, sponsored to act as somebody who wants to start new life. Spreads hatred, organises small groups of special interests, or lays low as S L E E P E R.

So far, we were lucky as attempts were intercepted, but at what cost?
Police and all other staff involved in picking up bad things before they happen is additional tax on our life.

Right, so theres a plot amongst Tamils and Sudanese to bring down Australia.

 

[Sidamo]

Trained in personal explosives person, sponsored to act as somebody who wants to start new life. Spreads hatred, organises small groups of special interests, or lays low as S L E E P E R.

Anyone who's planning on launching a terrorist attack here can just waltz on in on fake passports or as a sleeper with legit passports/visas. Hell, they could just pose as a legitimate businessperson w/ a couple of million to invest and we'd bend over for them. They don't have to resort to travelling as a boat person.

Maybe they could show up as students? That seems to be a popular route into Australia. Shall we close that loophole as well?

 

[SBH]

The hospitality industry is held up by "backdoor immigration".

Hope everyone will be happy paying $50 a plate @ a restaurant and $4 for their morning latte'.

actually probaly more.

We wont pay $50 a plate, So the restaurants who cant afford to pay a decent wage to its staff and provide affordable food at the same time will shut down. Thats the way it should be.
Would be the same situation with construction, same with agriculture, same with mining.
Give us a stable population, and let the market sort out what businesses we need and what we dont need. Its a false economy at the moment

 

[Woodsy58]

I think Sidamo has made a good point, and as PJ O'rourke said recently while debating this subject" if someone is willing to spend all the money they own and risk their life, and the lives of their family just for the chance to live in our country, why would we not want them here?"

 

[Trembling Hand]

We wont pay $50 a plate, So the restaurants who cant afford to pay a decent wage to its staff and provide affordable food at the same time will shut down. Thats the way it should be.

Yes exactly. You will have demand at the top for people who can pay for the services and you will either have to pay more for the bottom end or loss that part or degrade quality even more.

You cannot have both increased costs and decreasing prices.

Remember most owners in hospitality cannot even get staff through the door to discuss wages let alone paying them more. People just don't want to work in anything that doesn't offer them a "career path" to the CEO office now days.

Look at the problems season farmers have getting help.

 

[disarray]

I think Sidamo has made a good point, and as PJ O'rourke said recently while debating this subject" if someone is willing to spend all the money they own and risk their life, and the lives of their family just for the chance to live in our country, why would we not want them here?"

because they are violating our rules and procedures perhaps? ignoring our right to determine who we let into the country? if they have no respect for our rules or requirements before they arrive what makes you think they will suddenly respect them upon arrival?

it's not our job to save the world, despite what the endless niave bleatings from the bleeding heart brigade would have you believe.

and sidamo, your generalisations about europeans vs boat people are still stupid and woefully inaccurate. why you think people who are willing to ignore our rules and procedures to come here will suddenly become A-1 productive citizens is beyond me. it is just as likely (if not moreso) that they will demonstrate much higher levels of welfare dependancy and criminality than other groups in australia. but you just keep on forging ahead with dreaming your unsubstantiated fantasies and pass them off as fact.

 

[Trembling Hand]

it's not our job to save the world, despite what the endless niave bleatings from the bleeding heart brigade would have you believe.



..................... but you just keep on forging ahead with dreaming your unsubstantiated fantasies and pass them off as fact.

Tell us why that is fact again??

Surely that is a choice?

 

[disarray]

so you think we can afford to save the world? that we should open the doors to any number of refugees who make the trip from wherever and manage to make it to australian territory? that its ok to ignore australian national law and migrate to the land of welfare and honey regardless of others who may be equally deserving but follow procedures and try to migrate legally?

 

[Trembling Hand]

Of course not. But we are part of a community, the global community, and therefore when we gain advantages, through trade/export etc, we must also recognise that its cannot be a one way street.

No one lasts long in a community just taking. Sooner or later that will not work. So there is no reason not to take our fair share of the desperate. If you cannot recognise that there are some truly woeful situations that individuals and groups find themselves in & have no control over, where a desperate flee is there only hope of staying alive then your are either deliberately kidding yourself or just a miserable *****.

But thats your choice.

 

[disarray]

But we are part of a community, the global community, and therefore when we gain advantages, through trade/export etc, we must also recognise that its cannot be a one way street.... No one lasts long in a community just taking. Sooner or later that will not work.

i agree, and we provide a great deal of foreign and military aid to less fortunate countries so we are hardly a nation of "takers". people are always quick to criticise shortcomings (such as not wanting hordes of refugees piling into our capital cities) while conveniently neglecting the positive contributions we make to the regional and "global community". and i use the term "community" loosely because it is a word bandied about for convenience when people want the benefits of "community" without necessarily contributing to the "community".

So there is no reason not to take our fair share of the desperate. If you cannot recognise that there are some truly woeful situations that individuals and groups find themselves in & have no control over, where a desperate flee is there only hope of staying alive then your are either deliberately kidding yourself or just a miserable *****.

so what's our "fair share"? yes a lot of the world is a terrible place, i've seen plenty of it to know, but bringing in vast numbers of people into this country and adding strain to our resources and social cohesion is hardly going to improve matters at the source.

foreign development, education, military operations to provide stability are all far preferable to just opening the door to anyone who comes knocking, fleeing from their homeland and increasing the impoverishment of human capital in those areas. feed a man a fish / teach him how to fish etc. etc.

our primary concern and the priorities of the government should be what is good for the nation first and foremost, not what is good for <insert random number of refugees from any part of the 2nd and 3rd world>

 

[Woodsy58]

Disarray
I think I can safely assume then that you are not an indigenous Australian, otherwise you would see the point you are arguing is somewhat flawed.

 

[Sidamo]

and sidamo, your generalisations about europeans vs boat people are still stupid and woefully inaccurate. why you think people who are willing to ignore our rules and procedures to come here will suddenly become A-1 productive citizens is beyond me.

See, there's where you're making your mistake. Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees so we are *legally* required to accept all refugees who make it to our shores, and if they turn out to be genuine refugees, we're supposed to accept them.

Can you provide any evidence that my generalisations are inaccurate? Do you have evidence of boat people being granted asylum, changing their minds a few years later and deciding to head back to the war zone they came from? I have *many* Euro mates who came out here for a few years, then decided they wanted to go home, so upped and left.

Like I mentioned before, I would imagine that people who have sacrificed *everything* they own and risked their lives to get here, would, more than likely, be extremely grateful and likely to grasp that opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

 

[Sidamo]

but bringing in vast numbers of people into this country and adding strain to our resources and social cohesion is hardly going to improve matters at the source.

We seem to be bringing in well over 100,000 people a year anyway, half of whom seem to be hairdressers

Boat people arrivals seem to be running at about 5-7000/yr at the moment, so, even if we let them ALL in, it would still be less than 5% of our immigration intake.

If you want to argue that we should stop ALL immigration, so be it, but there's no valid evidence for saying "let in 100,000 a year, but exclude the most desperate".

 

[gooner]

Do you also consider the jews who came here escaping nazi germany to be "queue jumpers", its far easier and cheaper to come here legally rather than going through dodgy Indonesian people smugglers.

People from all different circumstances have both pros and cons for Australia. Ie refugees may cost more initially than other migrants but are more likely to fill jobs in the unskilled labour market as well as jobs that most Australians don’t want to do. Middle class brits/kiwis/asians bring extra skills from overseas but are less likely to stay here indefinitely and the government has less control over where these people live which aggravates the problem of housing shortages in the major cities.

That is an illogical argument. They do not arrive on boats from Sri Lanka or Afghanistan. They fly to Indonesia. Once there, they are free from persecution and can claim asylum and join the queue. By getting on a boat to Australia, they jump ahead of other refugee claimants that Australia would otherwise settle under its humanitarian visa program.

And your comment about control over where people live? All residents are free to live wherever they like. Immigrants (including the white ones) have a habit of concentrating in the cities. Rich white South Africans in St Ives in Sydney, Rich Chinese in Chatswood, Killara, Eastwood etc, Poor Chinese in Cabramatta, Ashfield. Do you have evidence that we have less control over where white people live?

 

[disarray]

Disarray
I think I can safely assume then that you are not an indigenous Australian, otherwise you would see the point you are arguing is somewhat flawed.

lol the "you're not an aboriginal" card. original. maybe go one step further and do the "we're all migrants from africa!". ignore all the economic, social and cultural development of australia in the last 200 years and just say "not indigenous? no right to an opinion" and be done with it.

See, there's where you're making your mistake. Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees so we are *legally* required to accept all refugees who make it to our shores, and if they turn out to be genuine refugees, we're supposed to accept them.

actually we aren't *legally* required to do anything for the UN, the EU, the world government, the illuminati, cthulu or anyone. we are *legally* required to follow our constitution and laws of australia, and as long as australia is a sovereign nation then that's it.

Can you provide any evidence that my generalisations are inaccurate?

it's a generalisation here try this generalisation on for size - "many muslim immigrants are hostile to australian liberal and democratic ideals and want to see the introduction of sharia law here". i have a few mates and have talked to muslims who say this so it's a valid generalisation to make right? according to your "i have mates who did it" brand of evidence it is anyway.

hey how about "sudanese immigrants are massively overrepresented in criminal statistics and australia would be better off without them". statistics are available to prove this generalisation, do you agree with that one?

Like I mentioned before, I would imagine that people who have sacrificed *everything* they own and risked their lives to get here, would, more than likely, be extremely grateful and likely to grasp that opportunity with both hands and make the most of it.

yeah it's great that you have an active imagination about the motives and eventual contribution of illegal immigrants coming to australia, but that doesn't change the fact that we have laws and procedures to govern the movement of people into and out of the country, and illegal immigrants blatantly ignore these rules and so obviously do not respect our sovereignity. the fact that maybe one day in your rainbow fantasy land these people may make good australians is irrelevant because they are breaking the law to get here in the first place.

We seem to be bringing in well over 100,000 people a year anyway, half of whom seem to be hairdressers ... If you want to argue that we should stop ALL immigration, so be it, but there's no valid evidence for saying "let in 100,000 a year, but exclude the most desperate".

immigration policy should, at the very least, take into account the cost / benefit to the nation. there are more desperate people in the world than there are people in australia so i say again, it's not our job to save the world but to a) maintain our society as the majority wants it maintained (ie. not devolve into a 3rd world sh1thole) and b) manage immigration in a way that benefits australia first and foremost.

a public debate would also be nice but will never happen because the government wouldn't like the result that people don't actually want large numbers of migrants with their funny foreign ways coming here in the first place. sweden held several opinion polls and local referenda in the 90's on the topic of immigration and a regular 2/3 majority were against the immigration policies. of course the government ignored this and sweden can now look forward to a long and illustrious future of welfare dependence, criminality and anti-state agitation from many of the immigrants they welcomed.

australia is lucky we are not at that state ... yet. a bit of common sense policy would be a good start to make sure we don't end up like londonistan or other europeans cities which are plagued by oh so many "desperate" immigrants.

 

[beaul]

I think the reason why a lot of Australians are concerned about our immigration intake is that a large number of recent immigrants who do not want to fit into our Australian life style, they want to change our society. They want to force us to accept their way of life.

Try going to France/Japan/ Saudia Arabia and trying that???

My background is German (1923) my relatives wanted to escape Germany and were willing to fit into Australian culture for a new way of life. I grew up with Italians (in Cairns) the same thing. They tried so hard to fit in.
Now I go to Sydney and i find a McDonalds with the toilet signs in Arabic. I am Not impressed.
Lebanese Boys force you to walk on the other side of the street, calling you names.
This is NOT the Australia we want, or should accept (Bondi riots)

Rudd is facing an election, and finally he concedes his government has got immigration all wrong.
The problem is not illegal immigation, that is a drop in the bucket. It is the legal immigration that is the problem.

We need a National Referendum on this issue.
Voting for either party does not work.