Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Silver price discussion and analysis

IHMO , we may as well wait fort Godot as wait for the demise of PM price fixing system.
The fed will open a new version of TARP window and lend them enough money to just keep shorting silver till the silver comes back to where they want it to be.
There is little doubt that the US govt is the counterparty to many of these shorted positions, it suits them to keep gold and silver within a range.
The CFTC hs been bombarded for years by GATA, people like Chuck Casey and keith Nuemeyer, but the toothless tiger has let the big four banks get away with it for years.
What is going to force the CFTC to step in now?
It is not in the interest of the US administration , the Fed, the big Banks or the CFTC to fix the up the blatant PM manipulation problem up.
Mick
just to eiterate that the reason for my pessimism on the rout of the Big 4 BVanks adn their manipulation of the silver market, this piece by Chuck Butler from a few years ago highlights how the administration just keep on putting roadblocks in the way of ckeaning up the silver manipulation/.
I have been a follower of Chuck Butler for over thirty years, and his message has not changed.
The blatant manupulation of the silver price has been going for at least that long, nad I don't see how it will be stopped short of blowing up the whole financial system.
Mick
It’s remarkable to me how close we appear to be getting to near-universal recognition that silver and gold (along with a host of other commodities) are priced based upon the activities of a relative handful of large paper traders on the COMEX (and other exchanges) and not on the workings of the world of actual supply and demand. I’m convinced that once the critical level of universal recognition is achieved (and it appears to be quite close), then we will experience the true free market price, which will be decidedly higher, particularly in silver.

Almost every day, I see new evidence that the number of those questioning the COMEX price-discovery process in silver is growing – sometimes, even without the knowledge of those doing the questioning fully-realizing that they are waking up to a price manipulation that has existed for decades. Wait a minute, I can hear you say – how is it possible for anyone to question the COMEX price-discovery process without realizing they are doing just that?

In fact, let me up the ante and provide an example of what I’m talking about as the “anyone” in this case being a quartet of seasoned metals professionals, whose combined total experience measures more than a century. It comes in the form of an hour-long discussion put out this week by the LBMA on silver. (In the interest of full-disclosure, I have no known relation to the analyst on the panel sharing my name). I’ll summarize what was discussed, but here is the link –

https://www.lbma.org.uk/videos/silver-ever-the-capricious-metal

It seems the discussion resulted from an earlier meeting arranged by the LBMA, in which a fairly large number of analysts had offered a consensus price projection for the next year involving a very modest increase in the price of gold, but a quite-surprising expectation of a rather dramatic increase in the price of silver of some 50%. This is very much outside the normal bounds of typical consensus predictions. The discussion in question (just linked) was intended to examine and reconcile the very bullish price consensus on silver.

There was, in my opinion, an accurate and objective presentation of the actual world supply and demand fundamentals in silver, as would be expected, since one of the participants was the head of the research team (Metals Focus) that provided the basis for the Silver Institute’s recent bullish silver review (already discussed on these pages). Data discussed included the rather shocking import of nearly 300 million ounces of silver this year by India, fully 35% of total world mine production. What commodity could see that level of import demand with prices actually falling, not rising?

To the credit of the panel, there was no attempt to dispute the accuracy of the data and for the first time in my memory serious questions were raised about the role of the COMEX in the pricing of silver. For example, I was quite shocked to hear that the COMEX was the “tail that was wagging the dog” (I should have put a copyright on that phrase), and a new one on me – “the COMEX is like a speedboat, while the actual supply and demand is like a supertanker”.

Still, there were obvious attempts to avoid the dreaded “M” word (manipulation). Trying to reconcile why the COMEX managed money traders were big net sellers over the balance of this year – in the face of extremely bullish physical demand - all manner of explanations were offered, revolving around outlooks for interest rates, the dollar, the economy, and yada, yada, yada. I wanted to scream at my computer screen – no, no, no. The managed money traders don’t consider anything, except price direction, as those short are purely technicians – slaves to price movement. The commercials rig prices lower and just like Pavlov’s dogs, the managed money traders sell.

It’s not just the analysts on this panel that continue to confuse this issue, as I see many others which try to reconcile why the managed money traders got so heavily short COMEX silver futures this year, even though the pattern over the years couldn’t be clearer. Put prices lower and the managed money traders will sell and sell short, period. The only question is who is capable of “putting” prices lower to induce the managed money to sell short and if you can’t figure out that the answer is the commercials, then you must have missed all the many billions of dollars in fines and settlements paid by the commercials (banks) over the past decade for rigging prices for spoofing. Another puzzle for me is how it is still assumed that the COMEX commercials are somehow, legitimate hedgers. A legitimate hedger would be a mining company looking to lock in a price – but what mining company would look to lock in the level of silver prices seen recently?

It's hard to dismiss the thought that the panel came to the quite-obvious conclusion that something was messing with the true price discovery process in silver and this is the closest I’ve seen yet that it was positioning on the COMEX. In years past, I thought the refusal of those in London to recognize the influence of the COMEX might have something to do with turf prejudice – NY vs London, but I didn’t sense that in this presentation. However, coming closer than ever before and still not making the obvious conclusion that this is a COMEX price manipulation, plain and simple, makes me wonder why? Perhaps it’s the realization that this has been going on for decades and, unfortunately, that means missing the key element in pricing for all that time.

Or perhaps there is some other impediment to the full-recognition that silver (and gold) prices are manipulated on the COMEX, like someone reluctant to see something if it endangers future compensation. I’m not unmindful of such pressures and my now 37-year quest to expose and end the COMEX silver price manipulation involved leaving my long-term employment in the brokerage industry, no particular walk in the park. I can certainly understand and appreciate such pressures.

Regardless, the growing recognition, fully-admitted or not, that silver and gold prices are manipulated on the COMEX is occurring on what seems to be a daily basis. It’s hard to run a scam and fraud of this magnitude and level of seriousness when too many see it. Add in the fact that these are supposedly closely-regulated markets and those responsible for the regulation, including the CFTC, CME Group, SEC, DOJ, and others, including JPMorgan and BlackRock (sponsor of SLV), have been reduced to virtual silence in the face of increasing evidence and allegations of price manipulation – the most serious of all market crimes. Who could imagine such a set of circumstances?

Then again, the perpetrators of the ongoing price manipulation – including some of those just mentioned – are not about to go down without a fight. That’s because the resultant fallout promises to be severe when the silver manipulation is ended. When, not if, prices explode, that will expose the price lie of the past four decades, along with all the consequences, legal and otherwise, that will entail. What this means is that the prime perpetrators of the silver manipulation, the large COMEX commercial shorts (banks) will seek to extend the scam until that last possible moment.

In fact, the signs that the big COMEX commercials are continuing to dig in (for now), seeking to cap and contain silver prices are evident in the last few COT reports. That is, the big commercials have been, essentially, the only sellers, adding new short positions. These same big commercials also have, yet again, diffused any possible delivery fireworks into today’s first delivery day on the big COMEX contract for both silver and gold – succeeding in whittling down open interest in December, to the point where it would be hard to imagine a delivery blow-up.

But some type of delivery problem seems inevitable to me should silver prices remain suppressed, even if its timing is unknowable. That’s because it’s too “easy” to take delivery on the COMEX, once the physical market starts to delay shipments to those who can’t wait for physical delivery – users and fabricators. Investors, whether retail or wholesale, can and will wait for the physical receipt of ordered and paid-for metal – but users are much different, as any delay in the timely delivery of physical metal threatens their entire operations.

I don’t think the COMEX (CME Group), nor the CFTC, would tolerate and allow a big speculator from disrupting the delivery process with a demand for physical silver that would cause congestion and delivery “problems”. On the other hand, should the ongoing suppressed price of silver continue to encourage demand and discourage supply, it looks like what could “break” the COMEX would be delivery demands from industrial users faced with delivery delays. I don’t know how the CME Group (or anyone else) could deal with that – short of suspending the delivery feature on silver contracts – which would, in turn, (like in LME nickel) expose the 40-year silver con. After all, it is the delivery mechanism that gives the COMEX its legitimacy.

Seeing how the big commercial shorts have been fairly aggressive in adding new shorts in both silver and gold, their choices from this point have been narrowed down to continuing to add in the hopes of, yet again, hoodwinking enough managed money traders to go short, as and when the big commercials rig prices sharply lower again. While it may be hard for me (and you) to imagine the managed money traders being so dumb as to go short again, considering they’ve never collectively profited when being short over the past four decades and just because silver prices are so low to begin with, that’s no guarantee they won’t.

There does still exist the possibility, that enough of the big new commercial shorts will seek – for the first time ever – to buy on higher prices, courtesy of raptor (smaller commercial) long liquidation and before the managed money traders position themselves long. But that’s a very narrow window of opportunity and would necessarily involve an explosive rally. Thus, the key issue is the same as recounted consistently, namely, what the big concentrated COMEX commercial shorts do or don’t do. But it won’t be what the regulators do or don’t do – it will be dictated by physical market conditions.

The big crooked COMEX commercials have proven harder to kill than Count Dracula himself, but all it will take is continued extreme tightness in the physical silver market to be the wooden stake through the commercials’ black hearts – a prospect looking more likely than ever before. Coupled with the growing recognition that something must account for silver’s low price amid increasingly obvious conditions in the physical realm dictating sharply higher prices, the connection with the illegal activity of a few large paper traders on the COMEX is coming into clearer focus daily.

The one constant is that the price of silver has been manipulated and suppressed for decades on the COMEX at the hands of a select group of large banks and like all manipulations, it must end someday. Also, like all price manipulations, the end, when it comes – comes in a flash. We’re in line for that flash ending in silver, courtesy of an ever-tightening physical shortage – the evidence of which becomes more visible daily, as does the recognition of what is occurring. Perhaps the big crooked COMEX commercials and their regulatory protectors will succeed in prolonging the manipulation for a while longer. Then again, perhaps not.

Ted Butler

December 1, 2022
 
I do not believe the brics are that interested in silver, so manipulation is going on and silver underpriced
Whereas with gold, every manipulation is helping the brics to buy ever more gold at cheaper price, a game where the US is a clear loser...
So the gap in the silver Gold ratio might increase..
Still a good trade so far
 
I do not believe the brics are that interested in silver, so manipulation is going on and silver underpriced
Whereas with gold, every manipulation is helping the brics to buy ever more gold at cheaper price, a game where the US is a clear loser...
So the gap in the silver Gold ratio might increase..
Still a good trade so far

There's a lot of chatter about that the fleet from USD is the cause of PMs going up, but there's not a lot of clear evidence of that over the past few months, even when gold and silver have shot up. Someone is pushing the price up and it's not mum and dad investors or internet chat sites. I doubt hedge funds have even started accumulating. I suspect China, Russia, and India have boatloads of the stuff in transit for a rainy day. If I knew the head of JPM I'd be on the phone.
 
Silver now over US$34 an ounce. I didn't really think the price would surge this far this quickly. What is driving it? Could the BRICS summit this Tuesday to Thursday in Kazan, Russia have anything to do with it? Is something significant to be announced?
 
Silver now over US$34 an ounce. I didn't really think the price would surge this far this quickly. What is driving it? Could the BRICS summit this Tuesday to Thursday in Kazan, Russia have anything to do with it? Is something significant to be announced?

There's reports of Israel planning something more significant to Iran other than just a few bombs. Like, regime change level. Secret plans were leaked last Friday. That might be enough for PMs to have run this hard the past few days.

 
There's reports of Israel planning something more significant to Iran other than just a few bombs. Like, regime change level. Secret plans were leaked last Friday. That might be enough for PMs to have run this hard the past few days.


Yes, that would do it.

I've been hearing rumours of a new BRICS currency for some time now, one that is backed at least partially by hard assets such a precious metals. It's sometimes hard to distinguish rumour and speculation from reality so I'm not sure what their real intentions are, but it is clear that continued de-dollarisation is a focus of BRICS.
 
Silver now over US$34 an ounce. I didn't really think the price would surge this far this quickly. What is driving it? Could the BRICS summit this Tuesday to Thursday in Kazan, Russia have anything to do with it? Is something significant to be announced?

Massive inflation, global turmoil, collapse of the US and USD, desperate desire to look for any alternative to FIAT... it's the perfect storm for precious metals.

Over 10 years ago I posted about how stupid I thought gold's valuation was. If someone like me can become a gold bug, you know it's an extreme situation. In 2020 I was astonished and alarmed at the insanity the world embraced (I posted all about that at the time) and it was obvious that among the inevitable damage it would cause was heavy inflation. Over the next few years I was puzzled at precious metals not reacting. Once they did break out early this year it was obvious that it was a train you wanted to be on. We're now seeing the market wake up. I think this could well be a repeat of the 1980 and 2011 scenarios. I'll keep gold discussion for the gold thread, and while I don't know how high silver will actually go this time, if you adjust for inflation it was hundreds of dollars per ounce in January 1980. I doubt we'll see it go that high, but at the very least I'm expecting it to test $50 (it already did that in 2011, and if we adjust for inflation it was much higher than $50).

I'm not the only one who can see that. When the obvious target is so far ahead of the current price, you have one of those rare scenarios where the chart actually can go up in a straight line. Even though I've obviously been talking about that lately etc, I was surprised to see no pullback at all on a Monday morning after the big run on a Friday evening. The market very clearly sees where silver is going. We even have a significant short squeeze coming.
 
Panicked short covering on Monday could push it towards US$35 but that's just speculation.

It got to US$35 and then pulled back, which is what I expected. I didn't think it would get through that resistance the first time. I've been watching the price action and there is a lot of buying support. Those whales who are short do not have the same level of control as they did a few weeks ago. The market is biting back.

I'm surprised the pullback wasn't deeper. I was expecting a test of US$32.50 and if we get back there I will take a bullish position. Friday is often a sell off day for silver, so it wouldn't surprise me to see silver end the day lower.
 
Silver's breakout continues above that $32.20 ish level. Nice pop overnight. Anything with a silver in its name should have a good day.

Gold and silver are in clean air. It's fun to watch, but it's not real until you sell it.

Screenshot 2024-10-30 at 09.32.11.pngScreenshot 2024-10-30 at 09.28.49.pngScreenshot 2024-10-30 at 09.29.59.png
 
The Silver price to gold price ratio is currently at 80.70 times ($2,779 USD divide by $34.44 USD), from history it averages at 50 times (based on history, Silver should be at $55.59 USD).

So, based on history, either Silver will increase in value or Gold will fall.

If world government/ state debt continues to increase, then Gold should either remain as is or increase, which means Silver should increase.
The only variable that occurs today, which did not occur previously in history, physical cash supply is declining due to more electronic payments occurring, so demand for silver used in coins will be down.

Chinas central bank is still buying gold (large demand). If USD increases then gold should increase as well.

While there is unrest in the world, Gold is a safe haven so should increase.

Appreciate any thoughts or further analysis on the above.
 
The Silver price to gold price ratio is currently at 80.70 times ($2,779 USD divide by $34.44 USD), from history it averages at 50 times (based on history, Silver should be at $55.59 USD).

So, based on history, either Silver will increase in value or Gold will fall.

If world government/ state debt continues to increase, then Gold should either remain as is or increase, which means Silver should increase.
The only variable that occurs today, which did not occur previously in history, physical cash supply is declining due to more electronic payments occurring, so demand for silver used in coins will be down.

Chinas central bank is still buying gold (large demand). If USD increases then gold should increase as well.

While there is unrest in the world, Gold is a safe haven so should increase.

Appreciate any thoughts or further analysis on the above.
This is a snapshot from an AI bizzo I use on my Opera Browser. I trust it helps.

1730253345612.png


gg
 
Based on that Silver is

Thanks, based on the above and history, then Silver is undervalued, unless demand for the luxury goods fall off a cliff (Jewelry/ Silverware).
Exciting times!
Another way to see that is that 80% of silver is directly linked to the wealth of the economy:
In a recession or depression,:you do not buy jewellery, you sell it; and industrial use collapse.
I like the ratio story but in 2 minds with silver due to the above.
Heavily invested in gold and silver so this is critical for my portfolio.
Note: Recently took a little bit of profit from both gold and silver but still a PM bug!!
 



Truth can sometimes startle and Jeff Currie, Goldman Sachs’ Global Head of Commodities Research, did startle on February 4, 2021.
On that date, Currie informed the investing world that retail silver investors could never create enough demand to move the price of silver higher by buying silver Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs).

Currie stated “… The shorts are the ETFs. The ETFs buy the physical (silver metal). They turn around and sell on the COMEX to be able to hedge that physical position like any other Corporate. It’s not a naked short like in an equity.”

What was startling about those words was Currie’s apparent admission that silver ETFs were selling claims for metal bars that ETFs beneficially purchased and vaulted for their shareholders thereby creating metal supply into the market to the detriment of ETF shareholders.

Rehypothecation or utilizing client assets for your own purposes is illegal unless a client first agrees.
Further, Currie’s claim that ETFs shorting metal into the market, that is beneficially owned by ETF shareholders, is “hedging” by ETFs in nonsense.

ETFs purchase and hold silver metal for investor clients. The clients hold the risk of price movement on that asset, not the ETFs, and thus there is nothing for ETFs to hedge. Currie describes ETFs merely creating multiple claims on assets that are beneficially held for ETF shareholders.

Currie’s words can be heard here:

ESxpDsUmQRE.jpg
In August 2023, Currie left Goldman Sachs.

Blythe Masters States JPMorgan Only Hedges Metal That They Hold For Clients​

From 2007 to 2014, Blythe Masters was head of JPMorgan’s Global Commodities division that traded commodities including silver. In 2012, Masters addressed accusations that JPMorgan (JPM) manipulated silver prices by stating that JPM simply acted in markets to hedge metal that that they vaulted for clients, that JPM did not make directional bets, and that JPM maintained a “relatively flat book” when the assets that they vaulted were considered along with the hedging or short selling that JPM executed in the markets.

Masters further said that JPM acted for clients, had no interest in the direction of silver’s price, and that manipulation of silver’s price is “not part of our business model, it would be wrong, and we don’t do it”.

In September 2020, JPM paid a $920 million (M) fine for manipulating gold, silver, platinum, and palladium prices.

Masters’ words can be heard here:

gc9Me4qFZYo.jpg
Masters left JPM in 2014 after spending 27 years at JPM and operates a startup blockchain fintech company. In 2014 JPM sold its commodities business and paid $410M to settle an investigation for energy price manipulation within its Commodities group. JPM admitted no wrongdoing.

BlackRock operates the ‘SLV’ silver ETF that currently holds 481 million oz. of silver for its silver investor shareholders. Those silver bars are vaulted by JPMorgan at its vault facilities and the silver is maintained in a Trust by Bank of New York Mellon Corp for SLV.

JPM is a very active trader accounting for 44% of all US bank trading revenues. See: A Bank Regulator Provides a Frightening Look at the Trading Casino Jamie Dimon Has Built Inside His Federally-Insured Bank

A Difficult Situation​

If Jeff Currie is correct, ETFs have, over the years, sold short large amounts of their investors’ silver into the market without informing their client investors.

Blythe Masters stated that JPMorgan provides ‘hedges’ to clients and then turns around and acts in the markets to secure those hedges in the market.

The scope of the estimated 4.3B to 6.4B oz. of silver sold short into the London promissory note cash market may well capture ETFs as well as bullion banks that have created these large silver short positions in the City of London’s silver and gold market if they indeed rehypothecated ETF owned assets into the market.

And, again, if Currie is correct these short positions created utilizing silver held for clients may also capture any trustees of the ETFs that have acted against their Trust.

The 6 year and running global silver deficit, worsening to 265M oz. this year, has drawn-down available liquid vaulted global silver stocks that are necessary to meet market demand.

As demand for settlement in physical metal of the large open interest of cash market claims sold into the London market continues and likely will increase, it will at some point start to visibly claim those who have sold these claims for metal into the market.​


Screen Shot 2024-11-02 at 9.05.47 AM.png

Depending where you started buying, you could easily be up 100% at current prices.

Pretty much everyone who gets involved with silver knows that this is a highly manipulated market or should do. When they say 'Banks' what they actually mean is US Government.

PM's have been manipulated since the 1930's. Nothing new, except the move from China and Russia to move back to PM's as a reserve asset. This cannot be underestimated, yet it has been and still is.

It is US Government v BRICKS. The BRICKS are winning and will continue to win because this is no longer the world of Soros' Imperial Circle:



Something strange has happened to the price of gold over the past year. In setting one record level after the other, it seems to have decoupled from its traditional historical influencers, such as interest rates, inflation and the dollar. Moreover, the consistency of its rise stands in contrast to fluctuations in pivotal geopolitical situations.


Gold’s “all-weather” characteristic signals something that goes beyond economics, politics and higher-frequency geopolitical developments. It captures an increasingly persistent behavioural trend among China and “middle power” countries, as well as others. And it is a trend that the west should be paying greater attention to. Some may be tempted to dismiss gold’s performance as part of a more general increase in asset prices that, for example, has seen the US S&P index gain about 35 per cent in the past 12 months.

Yet that correlation itself is unusual. Others will attribute it to the risk of military conflicts that have seen so many innocent civilians lose their lives and livelihoods, together with massive destruction of infrastructure. Yet the price journey suggests that there may well be a lot more going on. What is at stake here is not just the erosion of the dollar’s dominant role but also a gradual change in the operation of the global system.

No other currency or payment system is able and willing to displace the dollar at the core of the system and there is a practical limit to reserve diversification. But an increasing number of little pipes are being built to go around this core; and a growing number of countries are interested and increasingly involved.

Screen Shot 2024-11-02 at 9.19.47 AM.png

It's all about the debt.

Already mentioned in the DDD thread, with the return on 1 Jan 2025 of the debt ceiling, there will be some interesting dynamics coming into play when we have a liquidity crisis. We have them constantly due to the ever expanding deficits that need to be funded. They are currently sterilized by the Treasury (selling bonds) acting in concert with the Fed. After next year, the Treasury is less able to participate and it falls onto the Fed to create that liquidity.

More on this later.

China has forced the inflation that is to come out of the oil market and into the gold market through breaking the USD monopoly of all oil being sold in USD. Now you can buy oil in Yuan, Bolivars, whatever, settle in net trade balances and gold.

Silver is the poor man's gold.

Silver will be increasingly bought as 'money good' further adding pressure to the metal deficits already demonstrated.

Just a matter of time. Things are fast coming to a head.

jog on
duc
 
It's worth reflecting on how far silver has come in 2024, which has been a watershed year for the metal. In February when silver was languishing under US$23, US$30 seemed well out of reach. But now silver has been consolidating over US$30 for more than seven weeks and has not dipped below US$30 during that time.

It's important to keep focused on the fundamentals and the reality is demand continues to outstrip supply with industrial demand remaining strong and the supply deficit continuing for yet another year. Above ground inventories are declining.

The total silver market short position is currently 729 million ounces, almost an entire year of mine production. This is a ticking time bomb that will eventually go off. Exactly when is anyone's guess.
 
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