Yeah Ted sounds like a loon. Free market means 'voluntary trading', i.e. no force involved. If JPMorgan wants to loose billions of dollars by holding large short positions on a precious metal in a likely inflationary environment, that's their prerogative, and in a free market they are free to do that. To claim 'criminal enterprise is a measured description' is like referring to an 'orange is a deadly weapon' as a measured description.
Sir, it is you who must educate yourself. Here is a start:No actually it is not their prerogative, commodity law recognizes that futures offer the ability to manipulate a market and sets in place limits to trading depending on the type of participant and the market. Bulter's claim is that A. the limits in silver are inappropriately large and B. that they are exceeded. Futures are not a free market in the traditional sense, it is not all about supply and demand when it comes to derivative markets and inappropriate speculative activity can distort price. That is not a problem in a well balanced market but if you get massive concentration of contracts in one controlling entity (or a small number of them) it can produce a very unfair and unfree market.
You really need to get an education, Butler is actually a very experienced commodity trader. You may not agree with him but he is not a loon and has been on the money since $3.xx silver.
Free market means just what it says - all are free to participate in the market in whatever manner they choose, and no-one's trading is controlled by force or threat of force.
These days, things are a little different and the decision to rename the thread was so it could be more easily found, not just via the ASF search function, but by those using Google
Sir, it is you who must educate yourself. Here is a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
If there are commodity laws which 'sets in place limits to trading depending on the type of participant', then there is not a free market. There is government intervention, regulation, and state control.
What the fluff is "inappropriate speculative activity"? By what logical perversion would it be a 'free market' if large buyers and sellers could have their trading declared 'inappropriate', and then barred and limited in their trades? Of course large sales and large buys push prices down and up - that's how a market works!
Free market means just what it says - all are free to participate in the market in whatever manner they choose, and no-one's trading is controlled by force or threat of force.
The situation you are referring to with the silver bullion bank is not abnormal. Indeed this is how all banks work (wikipedia: fractional reserve banking). The actual quantity of cash that banks own is a small fraction of that which it owes to depositors.
You seem to treat the concepts of 'regulations' and 'commodity law' as hard and fast rules which were always there, and which are there for our own good. They are not. Regulatory laws are limits upon individual rights. Any statutes related to commodity trading which one could call 'commodity law' is merely a restriction on individuals rights to trade commodities. These are not good things, and they are the opposite of a free market.You claimed JPM should be able to open as many futures as they want unhindered... I said NO thay cannot it is against the regulations and rightly so, then you blow off in some odd 'free market' rant without really understanding how and why futures are structured they way they are. The fact that futures need limitation is not in question, that was settled a long time ago and they have been regulated for a long time. Butlers concern is over the actual existing futures limits in relation to the size of the market.
Please stick to the original debate (me attacking butlers idea of 'free market').
You seem to treat the concepts of 'regulations' and 'commodity law' as hard and fast rules which were always there, and which are there for our own good. They are not. Regulatory laws are limits upon individual rights. Any statutes related to commodity trading which one could call 'commodity law' is merely a restriction on individuals rights to trade commodities. These are not good things, and they are the opposite of a free market.
Now, you can claim that a free market is bad, or that regulations are good, sure. But you cannot claim, that you can both have both regulation and a free market.
No violations of anyone's rights occur because JPMorgan takes very large positions. So long as JPMorgan doesn't inform its stockholders and creditors 'we don't take very large positions', no one is defrauded. If JPMorgan takes a ridiculous position which goes against it, and it is forced to default on its obligations, it gets dissolved by a bankruptcy court (or at least in a functioning legal system without 'too big too fail, bailout' nonsense).
No violations of anyone's rights occur because JPMorgan takes very large positions. So long as JPMorgan doesn't inform its stockholders and creditors 'we don't take very large positions', no one is defrauded. If JPMorgan takes a ridiculous position which goes against it, and it is forced to default on its obligations, it gets dissolved by a bankruptcy court (or at least in a functioning legal system without 'too big too fail, bailout' nonsense).
Yes, naturally. Trading leveraged positions on anything creates bigger price moves. Indeed far from this being a bad thing, it helps with the supply and demand process since they are functions of the price.To be very, very clear Mr Butler is talking about trading futures contracts in silver, not silver bullion, 99% of these contracts result in no real silver ever changing hands yet they can have a marked impact on the real commodities price.
This is just more doublethink. Competition exists naturally. Those who claim that the 'playing field isn't level' are more often than not losers, seeking to tilt a flat field in their favour. 'Regulatory framework' is the condescending invention of politicians who believe they know best and should control peoples lives.I'm sorry but that is not correct, free market capitalism can only exist because of the right regulation. You need strong contract law etc to make it work, you need the right regulatory framework to level the playing field and engender competition.
Yes, naturally. Trading leveraged positions on anything creates bigger price moves. Indeed far from this being a bad thing, it helps with the supply and demand process since they are functions of the price.
Hypothetical instance: fund X wishes to speculate on bananas. The price is currently $1/kg. Fund X has insight (from weather modeling, surveying of farm yields, whatever) that there is going to be a shortfall of bananas this year. Fund X then buys epic quantity of banana futures contracts (not physical bananas, who needs a tonne of physical bananas?). This contract purchase is so big it forces price to $2/kg. Higher price then triggers farmers to overweight their efforts on bananas, shortfall is reduced. Beautiful isn't it?
Now suppose Fund Y is malicious and evil, with a lust for a good market bash-around. Sure he tries to smash down the price, but this just creates a great buying opportunity for Fund X, who knows the value.
This is just more doublethink. Competition exists naturally. Those who claim that the 'playing field isn't level' are more often than not losers, seeking to tilt a flat field in their favour. 'Regulatory framework' is the condescending invention of politicians who believe they know best and should control peoples lives.
You are determined to believe that 2+2=5 and that regulation and a free market can simultaneously occur, so we will use an example:
Bob wants to sell Jane 10,000 fish, and she wants to buy them.
Free market: he does so, she does so.
Now introduce example regulation: 'You cannot sell more than 1000 fish per year, to protect the business of small family fishermen who cannot compete with big fishing magnates.
Bob now attempts to sell the fish to Jane. Bob is prevented from doing so by a man with a gun stood between him and Jane. The man says 'that is more than 1000 fish, you are not permitted to make this trade'.
In the former case, the freedom is obvious - the trade simply happens. In the later case, the lack of freedom is obvious - some arbitrary organization has declared that it has the right to control certain aspects Bob's and Jane's actions by force.
Cognitive dissonance (doublethink) would be required to claim that in the latter case Bob and Jane were operating in a free market.
This is just more doublethink. Competition exists naturally.
OK insert 'for december delivery' after the word fish.Anywhoooo.... fish smish! You are giving a spot market example while arguing that futures should not be limited!
Yes but that case follows the same idea as limiting futures sizes. It is the idea that because someone doesn't have the commodity now then they have no possibility of guaranteeing having it in the future. However, every bank in the world works on this principle (with the 'commodity' in question being money). The force that keeps people in check and not over-issuing is risk of default.A case could be made that if you don't own it or can't borrow to sell then you have no natural right to sell it, in any market!!!
Good contract law is sufficient, regulation is not capitalist. Hong kong follows the economic policy of 'positive non-interventionism'. It is so (relatively) capitalist and non-regulated that banks can still issue their own banknotes. Indeed it is the closest thing to a free market that the world has.Good contract law and associated regulation are necessary precursors of capitalism. Go and study the history of Hong Kong and look to the reasons for its success.
Hope you weren't in at 49I look forward to skinning you in the market..... using the rulesCome trade Silver against me... I need to cut this months pay cheque.
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