Should the "Yes Men" be able to change the world?

[pixel]

The activists mentioned in this thread appear to be self deluded publicity seeking egomaniacs. Being noticed within society is their primary motivation as it satiates their inner insecurity. Their fictional claims of altruistic intent are simply a creative cover story used to excuse and justify the crimes they perpetrate in their quest for publicity.

These activists are emotionally insecure on account of the fact that honest and industrious conduct within society has proven to be too daunting a challenge for them. In order to placate their personal insecurity they have, instead, subscribed to a heroic fantasy i.e. "save the planet from industrial tyranny". They choose to live out this fantasy irrespective of its contrast to reality. Anyone they encounter whom doesn't subscribe to (or support) their fantasy automatically arouses a fear response and is perceived as a threat that must be either converted or invalidated ( ie. denounced, incarcerated,destroyed etc.) so that their fantasy may continue unhindered. Until their personal issues are dealt with, it will be very difficult for them to break the hold that their heroic fantasy has over their lives. After all why would someone choose to embrace the reality of their life as a pathetic and fearful under achiever when this can all be avoided via the perpetuation of a heroic fantasy?

The harmful and misguided actions of these self deluded individuals poses a definite threat to the fabric of our society. As such, I believe it is in our best interests to take protective measures against such activism. To this end, I am of the opinion that these activists require professional assistance/guidance in addressing their innermost fears and insecurities. Failing this, society will need to give serious consideration to incarceration in an appropriate mental health care/rehabilitation facility. Anything less will likely result in further atrocities being perpetrated against innocent entities (individual and corporate) courtesy of these mindless and self ingratiating psychopathic primates.

+1E100
Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[basilio]

Cynic, Pixel I think you have offered far more of an insight into your state of mind than observations about the Yes Men.

There was a society that considered its actions so right that any protest or disagreement automatically meant the protester needed psychiatric assessment and incarceration .

That was the Soviet Union of the 1950's, - 80's. Can you remember the protests of the Free World on behalf of the valiant Russian activists who exposed the Gulags and excesses of the Soviet government? Perhaps you'd like to check out the reference and see if this model is the one you would use to take care of protesters.

But perhaps CYnic you are already aware of this and your just running an elaborate hoax to see who agrees ?

Perhaps....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

[pixel]

Cynic, Pixel I think you have offered far more of an insight into your state of mind than observations about the Yes Men.

Glad to see you did gain some insight, basilio

Now go and get that Asimov novel I told you about earlier:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gods-Themselves-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553288105
That will provide an even more valuable insight into the human psyche when there is a dichotomy of views and the population faces the choice between immediate personal loss vs potential future discomfort.

PS: The full quote, from which the title is taken, reads
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
So I don't expect the Yes Men, Moylan, or all of their doting fans to come to reason. But there may be hope for one or two.

 

[basilio]

The campaign to declare political opponents mentally sick and to commit dissenters to mental hospitals began in the late 1950s and early 1960s.[3]:402 As Vladimir Bukovsky, commenting on the nascency of the political abuse of psychiatry, wrote, Nikita Khrushchev reckoned that it was impossible for people in a socialist society to have anti-socialist consciousness, and whenever manifestations of dissidence could not be justified as a provocation of world imperialism or a legacy of the past, they were merely the product of mental disease.[3]:402 In his speech published in the state newspaper Pravda on 24 May 1959, Khrushchev said:

A crime is a deviation from generally recognized standards of behavior frequently caused by mental disorder. Can there be diseases, nervous disorders among certain people in a Communist society? Evidently yes. If that is so, then there will also be offences, which are characteristic of people with abnormal minds. Of those who might start calling for opposition to Communism on this basis, we can say that clearly their mental state is not normal.[3]:402

] Along with paranoia, sluggish schizophrenia was the diagnosis most frequently used for the psychiatric incarceration of dissenters.[65] As per the theories of Snezhnevsky and his colleagues, schizophrenia was much more prevalent than previously considered since the illness could be presented with comparatively slight symptoms and only progress afterwards.[5] As a consequence, schizophrenia was diagnosed much more often in Moscow than in cities of other countries, as the World Health Organization Pilot Study on Schizophrenia reported in 1973.[5] In particular, the scope was widened by sluggish schizophrenia because according to Snezhnevsky and his colleagues, patients with this diagnosis were capable of functioning almost normally in the social sense.[5] Their symptoms could be like those of a neurosis or could assume a paranoid character.[5] The patients with paranoid symptoms retained some insight into their condition but overestimated their own significance and could manifest grandiose ideas of reforming society.[5] Thereby, sluggish schizophrenia could have such symptoms as "reform delusions," "perseverance," and "struggle for the truth."[5] As Vladimir Stayzhkin reported, Snezhnevsky diagnosed a reformation delusion for every case when a patient "develops a new principle of human knowledge, drafts an academy of human happiness, and many other projects for the benefit of mankind."[69]:66

Does this sound familiar Cynic, Pixel ?

I urge you to check out the Wiki post on political abuse of Psychiatry in Soviet Union. Desperately sad stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

[basilio]

I checked out the short story of The Gods Themselves on Wiki.

Certainly fascinating and I love Isaac Asimov as a SF writer. Thanks for the tip off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Themselves

 

[cynic]

Does this sound familiar Cynic, Pixel ?

I urge you to check out the Wiki post on political abuse of Psychiatry in Soviet Union. Desperately sad stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

...As a consequence, schizophrenia was diagnosed much more often in Moscow than in cities of other countries, as the World Health Organization Pilot Study on Schizophrenia reported in 1973.[5] In particular, the scope was widened by sluggish schizophrenia because according to Snezhnevsky and his colleagues, patients with this diagnosis were capable of functioning almost normally in the social sense...

Comrade Basilio, thankyou for providing this wiki "reference" to psychiatric misdiagnoses within the Soviet Union.
I do, of course, understand the difficulties that can arise in discerning words written in plain English whilst attempting to read them through green (or watermelon) tinted lenses.

I fail to understand how one equates those to whom

"fictional claims of altruistic intent are simply a creative cover story used to excuse and justify the crimes they perpetrate in their quest for publicity" (as per my original post)

with those whom

"were capable of functioning almost normally in the social sense" (as per your wiki quote).

I believe that many would readily agree that there is a chasm of difference between the aforementioned groups.
Are you able to illuminate me on your thinking in this regard?

...Anyone they encounter whom doesn't subscribe to (or support) their fantasy automatically arouses a fear response and is perceived as a threat that must be either converted or invalidated ( ie. denounced, incarcerated,destroyed etc.) so that their fantasy may continue unhindered...

One could be forgiven for interpreting these recent efforts at obfuscation (of original intent and meaning) as further examples of one fantasist's need to invalidate those not supportive of said fantasist's self delusion.

 

[basilio]

Very simple Cynic.

The Communist Leaders of the Soviet Union decided that anyone who thought there was anything wrong with Communist state had to be sick.

So they sent them to psychiatric hospitals to be treated for their illness - which was criticizing the government.

You are proposing that we should treat the various Jonathans, Yes Men and other do good fantastists in the same way on exactly the same premise - that they are clearly sick people who need help.

 

[pixel]

Jeff Foxworthy penned this to explain the differences between Republicans and Democrats.
Well, we don't have those around here, but I reckon most of it applies to this context:

If you ever wondered which side of the fence you sit on, this is a great test!

If a Liberal is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a Greenie is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

If a Liberal is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a Greenie is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a Liberal is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
A Greenie wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Liberal doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Greenies demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a Liberal is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A Greenie non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Liberal decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A Greenie demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a Liberal reads this, he'll forward it so his friends can have a good laugh.
A Greenie will delete it because he's "offended".

Well, I forwarded it.

And one more that I'm adding in this context:

If a Liberal recognises a danger ahead, he works towards a solution.
A Greenie demands everyone stop what they're doing and listen to him talk about it.

 

[cynic]

Very simple Cynic.

The Communist Leaders of the Soviet Union decided that anyone who thought there was anything wrong with Communist state had to be sick.

So they sent them to psychiatric hospitals to be treated for their illness - which was criticizing the government.

You are proposing that we should treat the various Jonathans, Yes Men and other do good fantastists in the same way on exactly the same premise - that they are clearly sick people who need help.

Your admired activists have perpetrated frauds that hurt innocent people! The reason for your repeated efforts to compare the oppressive practices of Communist governnments with my contempt for the deceiptful,malicious and criminal acts of self-delusional glory seekers continues to elude me....

Unless... are you perchance one of these fantasists whom thinks it's okay to deceptively and maliciously disrupt the lives (and livelihood) of law abiding citizens in order to further your own idealistic/political pursuits?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Your admired activists have perpetrated frauds that hurt innocent people! The reason for your repeated efforts to compare the oppressive practices of Communist governnments with my contempt for the deceiptful,malicious and criminal acts of self-delusional glory seekers continues to elude me....

Unless... are you perchance one of these fantasists whom thinks it's okay to deceptively and maliciously disrupt the lives (and livelihood) of law abiding citizens in order to further your own idealistic/political pursuits?

I don't believe that Anthony Moylan is sick or unwell in any way because of his recent action.

It will be up to the courts to decide if he is a criminal, should ASIC decide a prosecution is warranted.

If he is, he may end up being fined or in Goulbourn Gaol.

Should the latter happen he may feel quite unwell.

gg

 

[cynic]

I don't believe that Anthony Moylan is sick or unwell in any way because of his recent action.

It will be up to the courts to decide if he is a criminal, should ASIC decide a prosecution is warranted.

If he is, he may end up being fined or in Goulbourn Gaol.

Should the latter happen he may feel quite unwell.

gg

Thanks for that GG.

If it comes down to a requirement for action on the part of ASIC then I shan't be holding my breath.

As for fines, what are they going to do? Garnishee his welfare payments perhaps!!

Gaol is too good for this conceited !@#$%. I'd rather see him publicly humiliated by being forced to spend years performing low paid, labour intensive, tasks until such time as all affected are fully recompensed for any financial losses incurred consequent to his stunt.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Thanks for that GG.

If it comes down to a requirement for action on the part of ASIC then I shan't be holding my breath.

As for fines, what are they going to do? Garnishee his welfare payments perhaps!!

Gaol is too good for this conceited !@#$%. I'd rather see him publicly humiliated by being forced to spend years performing low paid, labour intensive, tasks until such time as all are fully recompensed (including interest) for any financial losses incurred consequent to his stunt.

No worries mate, basilio was setting up a strawman argument, which I felt was a bit of an unfair response to an excellent original post from you.

I personally hope Moylan does time, qldfrog, a fellow ASF member, has had a considerable loss because of Moylan on WHC.

ASIC will be under considerable pressure to prosecute as this type of action is so easily repeatable, particularly as the behaviour is endorsed by the Greens, a party holding the balance of power in the Federal Parliament and in coalition with the ALP in Tasmania.

gg

 

[basilio]

Your admired activists have perpetrated frauds that hurt innocent people! The reason for your repeated efforts to compare the oppressive practices of Communist governnments with my contempt for the deceiptful,malicious and criminal acts of self-delusional glory seekers continues to elude me....

Unless... are you perchance one of these fantasists whom thinks it's okay to deceptively and maliciously disrupt the lives (and livelihood) of law abiding citizens in order to further your own idealistic/political pursuits?

Ah my dear Cynic you truly are one with the delusion of words. An infinite capacity to roll veritable miles of babble across brooks that will not hear you.

Roll on to the sea Cynic. Let your melodious words fill the ocean with their wisdom. Us mere mortals stand in awe and wonder.

 

[basilio]

And dear Cynic given the vehemance of your feelings towards our little petal Jonathan for his 20 minute prank I wonder what you would propose for the other 100,000 various scammers who rip off investors on the stock exchange or similar financial institutions ?

Clearly it must be many orders of magnitude higher if you want any type of comparison.

 

[basilio]

No worries mate, basilio was setting up a strawman argument, which I felt was a bit of an unfair response to an excellent original post from you.

I personally hope Moylan does time, qldfrog, a fellow ASF member, has had a considerable loss because of Moylan on WHC.


gg

Really GG ? Strawman argument ? Perhaps a quick refesh of Cynics florid response might refesh your memory

The harmful and misguided actions of these self deluded individuals poses a definite threat to the fabric of our society. As such, I believe it is in our best interests to take protective measures against such activism. To this end, I am of the opinion that these activists require professional assistance/guidance in addressing their innermost fears and insecurities. Failing this, society will need to give serious consideration to incarceration in an appropriate mental health care/rehabilitation facility

And then I said

Guess what folks ? The last government that decided activists were just sick in the head and should be put in a mental asylum for treatment was... the Soviet Union.

Seems like a pretty close analogy to me.

 

[Julia]

Meantime, since I understand he has been camped in the bush for around four months, one would assume he has no job and is not looking for one.
Presumably, then, the taxpayer is funding his existence?

 

[cynic]

And dear Cynic given the vehemance of your feelings towards our little petal Jonathan for his 20 minute prank I wonder what you would propose for the other 100,000 various scammers who rip off investors on the stock exchange or similar financial institutions ?

Clearly it must be many orders of magnitude higher if you want any type of comparison.

What a surprise! Yet another attempt at obfuscation!

So you want to take this thread off topic now do you? Is your original position becoming too difficult to defend?

Did I hit a nerve when talking about the reasons people cling so dearly to their heroic fantasies?

I am sure I am not alone in wanting to see any criminal prosecuted to the fullest extent of law. I also believe that many would agree that such people should, as far as practicable, be held financially accountable for the losses of their victims and not be allowed to enjoy any notoriety arising from the commission of their crimes.

Are you happy to get back on topic now Basilio? Or are you still finding your original position indefensible?

 

[pixel]

Meantime, since I understand he has been camped in the bush for around four months, one would assume he has no job and is not looking for one.
Presumably, then, the taxpayer is funding his existence?

Sadly, Julia, that seems to be the case. Meaning your and my taxes paid for his laptop and Internet access fees as well as for all the other fluffheads' upkeep.

 

[cynic]

Comrade Basilio, thankyou for providing this wiki "reference" to psychiatric misdiagnoses within the Soviet Union.
I do, of course, understand the difficulties that can arise in discerning words written in plain English whilst attempting to read them through green (or watermelon) tinted lenses.

I fail to understand how one equates those to whom

"fictional claims of altruistic intent are simply a creative cover story used to excuse and justify the crimes they perpetrate in their quest for publicity" (as per my original post)

with those whom

"were capable of functioning almost normally in the social sense" (as per your wiki quote).

I believe that many would readily agree that there is a chasm of difference between the aforementioned groups.
Are you able to illuminate me on your thinking in this regard?



One could be forgiven for interpreting these recent efforts at obfuscation (of original intent and meaning) as further examples of one fantasist's need to invalidate those not supportive of said fantasist's self delusion.

Allow me to jog your memory Basilio, I believe this earlier post highlights the inconsistencies of your "strawman" comparison between my expressed sentiments and your wiki quote re psychiatric misdiagnoses in the Soviet Union.

 

[Calliope]

i can see why basilio was confused at one stage into thinking Moylan's name was Doyle.

Which side are they on? John Doyle interviews Jonathan Moylan on Radio National's Summer Breakfast on Wednesday:

DOYLE: Now we're also joined of course by Jonathan Moylan himself, the perpetrator of the alleged crime. Jonathan, good morning

Moylan: Good morning, how are you?

Doyle: Yeh, not too bad; well, you'd have to be over the moon, the way this has gone? ...

Doyle: Right, you must be concerned about what might become of you in the immediate future, Jonathan?

Doyle: Well, we'll watch the developments with a keen eye and keen interest. Jonathan, thank you very much for taking the trouble to join us this morning. ... Jonathan Moylan the activist who generated the, um, spurious, um, err, statement supposedly from the ANZ bank that created all the drama.