Should the GST be increased/widened?

luutzu · 6 November 2015

SirRumpole said:
Something has to be done about the ballooning health expenditure.

More diseases being diagnosed, more expensive machines and drugs to treat them and the rapidly increasing mental health problem meaning ever more expensive psychiatrists to pay.

This is all a consequence of rapidly increasing population (a large proportion of which is immigration) which I cannot see any need for. Of course businesses say they need more customers but they are not prepared to employ them here, eg more call centres going to the Phillippines, manufacturing is dying and technology will take over many jobs.

There is not enough focus on the rapidly changing demographics that are destroying our way of life.

Ballooning costs are not always due to larger population - due to higher costs of medicine and other tests, making big pharma really rich. All so they are more innovative and efficient or something.

With the Transpacific Trade deals that's been signed... big pharma want to extend patents on their drugs from 10 to 15 (around there) years before a generic could be made from it. Last I read there were talks of going only to 12 years. And by changing a few molecule on the same old drug, it's considered "new"... so yea, costs a fair bit just with that agreement.

Don't think it is the case in Aus., but in the US this economist was saying how big pharma lobbied to put one line into a bill whereby the US gov't cannot negotiate on drug prices - cannot use it huge buying power to get cheaper drugs. That line costs the US taxpayers something like $1 Trillion over 10 years.

They're very creative these... people.

luutzu · 8 November 2015

Tax hike: How a 12.5 per cent GST will cost houses three times more than carbon price
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tax-hike-how-a-125-per-cent-gst-will-cost-houses-three-times-more-than-carbon-price-20151107-gkt8h5.html

...It shows the government would raise about $14 billion a year by broadening the GST base or raising the rate to 12.5 per cent.
...

It estimates a carbon price of $28 per tonne would raise the same amount.
The modelling also shows if the GST base was broadened it would cost the average household about $48 a week, and if the rate was raised to 12.5 per cent it would cost households less, at $23 a week.
But a carbon price of $28 per tonne would cost households less than both options – just $10-15 a week on average – while raising the same amount of revenue for the government, it shows.

sptrawler · 8 November 2015

luutzu said:
Tax hike: How a 12.5 per cent GST will cost houses three times more than carbon price
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tax-hike-how-a-125-per-cent-gst-will-cost-houses-three-times-more-than-carbon-price-20151107-gkt8h5.html

Well that sounds obvious, most sensible people complained about the carbon tax, because it hammered small business and manufacturing.

Hitting people with more gst, is the right move IMO if people want to spend more, eat out more, have more welfare, education, Government services etc.
Who better to pay for it, than the people who want it?

The carbon tax, was just hitting companies who supply jobs with an added cost, now we are wanting to reduce their tax to stimulate jobs, how crazy is that. Dumb Labor, Dumb.IMO

If the public wants increased welfare, wants to help all and sundry, to feel good when they cook a shrimp on the bbq. The public should pay for it, end of story.

Who do they think should pay for it?, Oh anybody but themselves. What a hoot, a land full of losers.

luutzu · 8 November 2015

sptrawler said:
Well that sounds obvious, most sensible people complained about the carbon tax, because it hammered small business and manufacturing.

Hitting people with more gst, is the right move IMO if people want to spend more, eat out more, have more welfare, education, Government services etc.
Who better to pay for it, than the people who want it?

The carbon tax, was just hitting companies who supply jobs with an added cost, now we are wanting to reduce their tax to stimulate jobs, how crazy is that. Dumb Labor, Dumb.IMO

If the public wants increased welfare, wants to help all and sundry, to feel good when they cook a shrimp on the bbq. The public should pay for it, end of story.

Who do they think should pay for it?, Oh anybody but themselves. What a hoot, a land full of losers.

we still have manufacturing to worry about impact of carbon tax on it?

sptrawler · 8 November 2015

luutzu said:
we still have manufacturing to worry about impact of carbon tax on it?

We need small manufacturing to start up, to supply jobs, we can't all work at McDonalds.

But then again, when I see the size of young people today, maybe we can.

luutzu · 8 November 2015

sptrawler said:
We need small manufacturing to start up, to supply jobs, we can't all work at McDonalds.

But then again, when I see the size of young people today, maybe we can.

You'd need strong demand for new manufacturing to start up or current ones to keep going. Making goods and services more expensive will slow down consumer demand. As for small micro bob the builder kind of business they'll lower their price, pay their couple staff less and get a few jobs cash in hand so no GST.

Funny how gov't always talk about not having enough money, spending too much, need to be more competitive and fair... then they cut social services, make laws that's easier for the fluro-collar to get fired without much compensation or warning - making them think twice about wage increases etc....

So the working class got the shaft and less services, but then for big business and the friends of ours, job security and competitiveness and fairness mean BHP ought to have more money, pay less tax and have "red tapes" like EPA approvals remove... so they can not fire people they could easily fire when profit is a bit slow.

Well there's always Oportos...

sptrawler · 8 November 2015

luutzu said:
You'd need strong demand for new manufacturing to start up or current ones to keep going. Making goods and services more expensive will slow down consumer demand. As for small micro bob the builder kind of business they'll lower their price, pay their couple staff less and get a few jobs cash in hand so no GST.

Funny how gov't always talk about not having enough money, spending too much, need to be more competitive and fair... then they cut social services, make laws that's easier for the fluro-collar to get fired without much compensation or warning - making them think twice about wage increases etc....

So the working class got the shaft and less services, but then for big business and the friends of ours, job security and competitiveness and fairness mean BHP ought to have more money, pay less tax and have "red tapes" like EPA approvals remove... so they can not fire people they could easily fire when profit is a bit slow.

Well there's always Oportos...

There would have to be a huge drop in living standards(wages), to encourage major manufacturing to base itself here.
Either that or a massive increase in population, thereby increasing domestic demand, to underpin manufacturing.
Neither of those will happen IMO, so it will be a slow grind, small manufacturing and services, will be the mainstay for the next few years.
Farming and agriculture will take off IMO, but due to automation and mechanisation, it won't be a major employer.

Therefore as I said, if people want the services, lifestyle and welfare system, we currently enjoy, they will have to pay for it themselves.

It is o.k just saying hit this company or, that company, but IF they are paying the corporate tax rate of 30%, they are paying a reasonable amount by World standards.

It isn't an easy thing, but as the third world takes our first world manufacturing and value adding jobs, their lifestyle(wages) increase.

The flip side is our lifestyle falls, as we decline toward a third world economy, simple logics.

The result is to maintain our lifestyle, we all have to donate more, as we as a country earn less.

It isn't rocket science, just my opinion, everyone should be trying to minimise their outgoings build a stronger more efficient family unit.

Get a job, any job, rather than welfare. There is no way the welfare system will cope, if everyone ends up on it.

luutzu · 9 November 2015

sptrawler said:
There would have to be a huge drop in living standards(wages), to encourage major manufacturing to base itself here.
Either that or a massive increase in population, thereby increasing domestic demand, to underpin manufacturing.
Neither of those will happen IMO, so it will be a slow grind, small manufacturing and services, will be the mainstay for the next few years.
Farming and agriculture will take off IMO, but due to automation and mechanisation, it won't be a major employer.

Therefore as I said, if people want the services, lifestyle and welfare system, we currently enjoy, they will have to pay for it themselves.

It is o.k just saying hit this company or, that company, but IF they are paying the corporate tax rate of 30%, they are paying a reasonable amount by World standards.

It isn't an easy thing, but as the third world takes our first world manufacturing and value adding jobs, their lifestyle(wages) increase.

The flip side is our lifestyle falls, as we decline toward a third world economy, simple logics.

The result is to maintain our lifestyle, we all have to donate more, as we as a country earn less.

It isn't rocket science, just my opinion, everyone should be trying to minimise their outgoings build a stronger more efficient family unit.

Get a job, any job, rather than welfare. There is no way the welfare system will cope, if everyone ends up on it.

Manufacturing will need to be what they'd call "jobs of the future". Problem is politicians know what they're saying just they don't train people for it - want to privatise uni and higher education instead.

Nothing beats teachers who want to make a buck... works real in VN where schools are so crowded and teachers paid so low that teachers don't teach while at school but offer extra tuition after hours. So the poor kids whose parents can't pay extra will learn ABCs while their mates learn ABCDEF.

Australia is practically a mining country with some ag. and a few banks holding us up. Yea ag is not big on labour, mining is going robotic, and the banks are crazy profitable but will soon enough go the way of Woolies checkouts.

Then once uni is privatised, GST increased, it'll be every man for himself like the good old revolutionary days.

----

Big corporations don't pay 30% income tax; nor do rich people earning anything above half a million.

Sure they pay 30% or whatever is written on profit... but income and profit is a tricky definition to pin point.. that's the idea I guess.

BHP, and others, got caught earlier for selling the ore cheap to their subsidiary in Singapore right? Using exchange or whatever, the profit on what they sell to themselves is low.. so 30% on that goes to ATO. From low-taxed overseas shelter and exchanges they mark it up and ship to the Chinese and keep the profit offshore.

30% tax? Mathematically speaking, yea.

Same with millionaires. Set up a "company", hire your spouse or kids, claim GST back on this and that "business expenses"... so the rate is there, just if you have enough dole, you're not going to pay it. Perfectly legal, I guess.

----

Anyway, if we do GDP per capita, or other measure of wealth and growth Australia has since WW2... As a nation we're much richer now yet we can't seem to afford anything and a larger percentage are struggling to make ends meet.

So there's a widening gap, and it's not because we're poor as a nation. Just that while all mates are equal, some are more equal than others. And polcies such as these are the cause.

Tisme · 9 November 2015

sptrawler said:
Well that sounds obvious, most sensible people complained about the carbon tax, because it hammered small business and manufacturing.

Hitting people with more gst, is the right move IMO if people want to spend more, eat out more, have more welfare, education, Government services etc.
Who better to pay for it, than the people who want it?

The carbon tax, was just hitting companies who supply jobs with an added cost, now we are wanting to reduce their tax to stimulate jobs, how crazy is that. Dumb Labor, Dumb.IMO

If the public wants increased welfare, wants to help all and sundry, to feel good when they cook a shrimp on the bbq. The public should pay for it, end of story.

Who do they think should pay for it?, Oh anybody but themselves. What a hoot, a land full of losers.

I think the carbon tax was a cloak of invisibility that companies used to jack up their prices, especially those connected with power production and delivery.

There has been a recent case where this was indicated with one large company pinged for charging an extraordinary amount of SSG levy on refrigerant gases.... and as I recall the Liberals played hard and fast on the cost to consumers because of coolroom repairs (which use insignificant amounts of gas in the scheme of things).

sptrawler · 9 November 2015

Tisme said:
I think the carbon tax was a cloak of invisibility that companies used to jack up their prices, especially those connected with power production and delivery.

There has been a recent case where this was indicated with one large company pinged for charging an extraordinary amount of SSG levy on refrigerant gases.... and as I recall the Liberals played hard and fast on the cost to consumers because of coolroom repairs (which use insignificant amounts of gas in the scheme of things).

It is what it is, manufacturing has shut down and it won't be starting up again quickly. If it was attractive financially to manufacture in Australia, they wouldn't have shut down.
Life is going to get tougher, whether we like it or not.IMO
We can only take money of Peter to pay Paul, for so long, then Peter runs out of money.

Tisme · 9 November 2015

sptrawler said:
It is what it is, manufacturing has shut down and it won't be starting up again quickly. If it was attractive financially to manufacture in Australia, they wouldn't have shut down.
Life is going to get tougher, whether we like it or not.IMO
We can only take money of Peter to pay Paul, for so long, then Peter runs out of money.

Manufacturing is another issue to what I'm talking about. Refrigerant gas for instance is usually just a pass over product imported either in bulk, or inside air conditioners.

I'm not sure if it's the case anymore, but when I worked on power stations, companies like Parsons built the gen sets overseas and imported them; adding handling costs and profit along the way.

We have traditionally been a KD or CKD industrial outpost for Great Britain or the USA, with things like trains, buses, etc, even automobiles to an extent. The value add profit component has largely been eaten away before the stuff hits the docks and when we do manufacture we tend to pay fees and royalties to overseas companies for the design and hi tech components.

Our move to, for want of a better word, the "Service" industry means we have lots of bums on seats adding administrative cost to product under the guise of compliance, logistics, quality, etc that simply makes us a top heavy national bureaucracy and therefore uncompetitive against work for and low reward for toil countries.

Remember the mantra of the 80's when Hawke and Keating could see this coming and pushed for the clever (educated and erudite) country in the face of stoich opposition by the conservatives who pined for a return to the good old days of riding on the sheep's back and pig ironesque policies?

sptrawler · 9 November 2015

Tisme said:
I'm not sure if it's the case anymore, but when I worked on power stations, companies like Parsons built the gen sets overseas and imported them; adding handling costs and profit along the way.

Small world, I ran Parsons units as a Power Station Controller, most of my working life.

Tisme said:
Remember the mantra of the 80's when Hawke and Keating could see this coming and pushed for the clever (educated and erudite) country in the face of stoich opposition by the conservatives who pined for a return to the good old days of riding on the sheep's back and pig ironesque policies?

Ah yes, the good old clever country, our education standards have fallen ever since.

luutzu · 9 November 2015

sptrawler said:
Small world, I ran Parsons units as a Power Station Controller, most of my working life.

...

Ahh... know I know why you pick Homer, d'oh.

luutzu · 9 November 2015

sptrawler said:
It is what it is, manufacturing has shut down and it won't be starting up again quickly. If it was attractive financially to manufacture in Australia, they wouldn't have shut down.
Life is going to get tougher, whether we like it or not.IMO
We can only take money of Peter to pay Paul, for so long, then Peter runs out of money.

Yea, heavy industry/manufacturing is gone forever in Aus.

Worked on NSW Warratah fleet and they manufacture the main structure in China, shipped it over to Aus for minor slotting in, electrical works, scratch repairs and testing. We can't compete with the Chinese on those built.

Thing is though, that project still provide a lot of work to Australian manufacturing... but it's not continuous work and when you stop/start manufacturing like that, it's not just the labour costs that make us uncompetitive, it's the learning curve and setting up costs that kind does it.

I mean, WTP took some 3 years and a lot of money and effort to get the gears and system in place... it then did really well, with quality and costs pretty much under control, the right people in place, the right skill sets and people... Then it stopped and disassembled.

NSW could have gotten another 20 sets for relatively cheap but nope. Option wasn't taken up and a few years later the gov't thought of tendering for a new fleet of 60 sets.

So yea, not always labour costs or union ruining budgets.

Logique · 10 November 2015

Turnbull is full of it. If he ever get's tired of politics, he has a big career ahead of him selling used cars.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...alcolm-turnbull-declares-20151109-gkufp4.html

...Malcolm Turnbull has described as "feeble" a growing Labor scare campaign against any GST increase but has nonetheless moved to insulate his government by declaring outright that whatever is agreed, it will not leave the poorest households out of pocket...

qldfrog · 10 November 2015

luutzu said:
So yea, not always labour costs or union ruining budgets.

for once i will agree with Luutzu
Last 15 y in IT, outsourcing was the buzz word, so no job for graduates/no uni courses and now, after dismayal results with outsourcing, a pathetic productivity cost on the all Oz industry, companies are looking for senior developpers and can not find them..surprise surprise
This idea that you can start stop an industry in a flash or and find again the market share you have lost is pipe dream,it will take decades to recover,
So IMHO, GST is one way to go, a limit on the tax advantages for super and ensuring global corporatation pay their fair shares of taxes in australia

Tisme · 10 November 2015

Logique said:
Turnbull is full of it. If he ever get's tired of politics, he has a big career ahead of him selling used cars.

Listening to the Treasurer this morning on AM, apparently the debate isn't about GST at all, but income tax and the opposition are effectively hijacking the conversation !!!

Good thing no one here is considering the GST as an issue, because the govt isn't.:bonk:

And the other chestnut (according to the treasurer) is that the govt is looking at ways to increase the pie by growing the economy and profitability, ...shame the first half of their tenure was designed to shrink the opportunity with an austerity policy. All over the shop like the proverbial underpants

luutzu · 10 November 2015

qldfrog said:
for once i will agree with Luutzu
Last 15 y in IT, outsourcing was the buzz word, so no job for graduates/no uni courses and now, after dismayal results with outsourcing, a pathetic productivity cost on the all Oz industry, companies are looking for senior developpers and can not find them..surprise surprise
This idea that you can start stop an industry in a flash or and find again the market share you have lost is pipe dream,it will take decades to recover,
So IMHO, GST is one way to go, a limit on the tax advantages for super and ensuring global corporatation pay their fair shares of taxes in australia

Only once? When will you catch up on your readings?

Yea they think they can start/stop, until they find out at great cost they can't then they get 457 skilled people in to manage the thing, then go on about how Australians can't build anything.

With IT... I think we mostly hire DBAs and graphic designers to maintain the databases and to give the US and overseas app a new face. From the little that I know, IBM and Microsoft products for enterprises are simply out of the box stuff made years ago overseas and Australian businesses will have to adapt to it; can't make any changes, and if it's needed and go up the chain it will be charged a small fortune.

Global corporations... we can't even know how much tax they're paid, forget about their fair share... can't know because privacy is very very important for corporations; not so important for us people though.

Logique · 10 November 2015

Parliament Question Time today.

Discarding their palm frond head dresses and tropical island leisure wear, the Opposition finally finds it's voice on the regressive 15% GST, favoured by Malcolm Turnbull.

Fun to watch him squirm. His vision for the nation? About as far as he can see from the front window of his Point Piper mansion.

The Nationals got it in writing, they knew a used car salesman when they saw one.

SirRumpole · 10 November 2015

Instead of asking the same gormless gst questions in QT, maybe the opposition should ask about this

http://www.afr.com/business/energy/...rofit-senate-tax-inquiry-told-20151108-gktu7s

Should the GST be increased/widened?

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