Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Should the GST be increased/widened?

Yes Iuutzu, and as drsmith and I said in the 'who will replace Tony Abbott' thread, Scott Morrison appears to be the only politician who can see the wood despite the trees.

To me, he seems to be the only one of either side, that has the courage of his convictions.

However having said that, I've been conned before.:D

I still have a slight bit of smoke left over from my youth, whether it would be classified as fire, is questionable.:D

I think we've all been conned before. So I'm quite wary of politicians and try not to have any idols - that way will be pleasantly surprised when good work is done, but otherwise can enjoy the fun from both sides.

Saw this lecture by this American journalist/historian in his 70s (Robert Scheer I think) for his book - The Pornography of Power. And man, you could hear his heart broke when he talks of Bill Clinton and Obama.

How he supported both of them, have great hope that since they came from the common people they would be friendlier to the masses, know struggles... then how he just see them selling out to money and power, literally selling out to big business and Wall St.

He said Bill Clinton was asking his advisors why Wall St. didn't like him, and how to make them like him. Advisors came back and a bunch of Wall St. bankers were put in high powered position and the Cabinet. Then came deregulation of derivatives and all that fun stuff Bush Jr. is mostly taking the blame for.

Same with Obama - all hope and change became just a slogan once he became the Democratic nominee and got the same set of advisors Bill Clinton got.

But the way money and politics are, even the most thoughtful politicians will put their career first and everything else second.

Listening to Howard Zinn... there is hope but he had found that hope do not come from great leaders, it had never came from the top - despite what history books teaches us. All great change and revolution came about because the people mobilise and organised - then politicians, being opportunitistic as always, will lean with the people once it look like the people are winning, they then came in and "lead".

So even if there are great leadership and geniunely civic-minded politician out there, them few cannot affect change and the stubborn ones will be isolated and spit out if the masses do not threaten to storm the gates and demand change. Hence we have public relation, propaganda for the manufacturing of consent; we have job insecurity to keep the masses occupied and easy access to light entertainment to pass the day; a great public educational system that doesn't teach much about thinking or enquiries; and a couple of big bad wolves out there just waiting to terrorise our children if we don't permit imperial grand strategy abroad and invasion of citizen's privacy at home.


So if Scheer's conclusion about Clinton and Obama - that politicians from poor families, won scholarship and know who has the money and who has the power and know that to get both you need to serve money and power - best to not put faith in leadership;

If the blue blood are like those Chris Hedges - a poor kid on scholarship to studies with the elite - observed; that they are a different breed very isolated from the world and whose world revolves around ordering poor and generally ethnic adults; whose schooling revolved around literally running the world; and whose failures are always taken care of... Hope in them is probably misplaced too.

What about the people?

They're too busy putting food on the table and keep the lights on; too well educated to question much; and so will only rise when the world's about to go to heck.

Maybe the only hope is a real, serious and imminent external threat at the time where a real leader just took office, when the masses are marching and the oligarchs are momentarily shaken and lose their grip on power.

Until all that align, it's business as usual and money trickles up but dreams and fine speeches trickle down.
 
Sure is good to have friends in high places.

GST hike to hit poor hard and leave rich unscathed, research shows
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gst-hike-to-hit-poor-hard-and-leave-rich-unscathed-research-shows-20151104-gkqkyg.html

[BThe analysis by the respected National Centre for Social and Economic Modelling shows the current 10 per cent GST consumes 13.4 per cent of disposable income for those in the bottom fifth of households, but that would rise to more than 20 per cent if the rate were lifted to 15 per cent, as is favoured by some within the Coalition government.
Households in the top 20 per cent, though, would experience a much milder impact, increasing from a mere 5.9 per cent of disposable income to 8.8 per cent.
[/B]

0511gst_729.png
 

That looks pretty dramatic, but if you run the numbers on the bottom income and top income, it really is dramatic.

The bottom income bracket $26,131, tax take goes from $3501 to $4677 and maximum $5300. They pay no income tax, no medicare and are probably not working, also probably qualify for handouts. Therefore easy to compensate, just increase the handouts.
Easy, take it off the person working two jobs and earning $172,000, just tax him more.:xyxthumbs


The top income bracket $172,638, tax goes from $10,185 to $13,120 and a maximum of $15,192.
Then add to that $50,000 income tax plus $3,500 medicare levy, plus private health $3,500.

An extra $5,000 tax on a worker who is already paying $57,000 more, so that makes $62,000 of the $172,000.:D
How much more do you want to take?
 
That looks pretty dramatic, but if you run the numbers on the bottom income and top income, it really is dramatic.

The bottom income bracket $26,131, tax take goes from $3501 to $4677 and maximum $5300. They pay no income tax, no medicare and are probably not working, also probably qualify for handouts. Therefore easy to compensate, just increase the handouts.
Easy, take it off the person working two jobs and earning $172,000, just tax him more.:xyxthumbs


The top income bracket $172,638, tax goes from $10,185 to $13,120 and a maximum of $15,192.
Then add to that $50,000 income tax plus $3,500 medicare levy, plus private health $3,500.

An extra $5,000 tax on a worker who is already paying $57,000 more, so that makes $62,000 of the $172,000.:D
How much more do you want to take?

But there's the tax cuts to stop bracket creeps; then at $170K+ income you can afford a few very creative accountants with a couple tricks up their sleeves :D
 
But there's the tax cuts to stop bracket creeps; then at $170K+ income you can afford a few very creative accountants with a couple tricks up their sleeves :D

Yes take on debt to offset your loses, which costs you more than you save, thus eating more of your take home pay.
It all sounds good,but the reality is a couple on $50k each in a low stress job, are sitting pretty.

Like I said $170k is actually about $100k take home, $50k equates to no tax, after rebates, I know where the losses are.
There is an equality problem, it just isn't politicaly correct to mention it.lol
 
Yes take on debt to offset your loses, which costs you more than you save, thus eating more of your take home pay.
It all sounds good,but the reality is a couple on $50k each in a low stress job, are sitting pretty.

Like I said $170k is actually about $100k take home, $50k equates to no tax, after rebates, I know where the losses are.

Wouldn't be if you split it with your spouse, hire your son and pay a few odd paper filing to the niece :xyxthumbs Or so I heard :D

Equality aside, increasing GST is just bad policy.

I find the tax policies since whenever is actually having it backwards.
You'd want to encourage spending, not savings and investments - not investments managed by the current graduates of finance anyway.

Very strange that we're supposed to be a market driven economy where the consumers tell businesses where and what to invests in through their spending; then our genius in Canberra thought to curb that and direct people's cash towards savings and financial markets... to invest in what? in financial markets?
 
Regressive and predatory, and this is the proof.

Poor people deserve to be punished for not sharing the heavy lifting required to get us out of the mess they created by voting Labor (then Liberal). :D
 
Poor people deserve to be punished for not sharing the heavy lifting required to get us out of the mess they created by voting Labor (then Liberal). :D

Also teaches the poor that it's not so nice being poor; better to be rich. That's how you encourage poor people to be rich - you get them to pay more for being poor and show them they'd be paying less if only they get off their behind.
 
Did you just say that the top end of town are being unfairly treated?

Not that late in Perth is it?

No I was just pointing out your example, was a bit misleading, not that anyone is interested in that aspect.

Same as the difference between, $170,000 gross income and $50,000 gross income, works out to roughly $50,000 after tax and concessions.
This is why Labor, coalition and just about every economist is saying personal tax has to come down, it just makes us less and less competitive.:D

But people don't want to hear that, they just want, someone has to pay for it.
 
Same as the difference between, $170,000 gross income and $50,000 gross income, works out to roughly $50,000 after tax and concessions.

Got any evidence to back this statement up? Not sure how this makes sense at all given our tax bracket system.

Up until recently I was making $150kpa gross and bringing home significantly more take home pay than my friends on $50kpa gross.
 
Got any evidence to back this statement up? Not sure how this makes sense at all given our tax bracket system.

Up until recently I was making $150kpa gross and bringing home significantly more take home pay than my friends on $50kpa gross.

Agree, from memory at my last position i was in the top bracket and paying 29% tax at the end of the year....excl. bonus
 
Got any evidence to back this statement up? Not sure how this makes sense at all given our tax bracket system.

Up until recently I was making $150kpa gross and bringing home significantly more take home pay than my friends on $50kpa gross.

Only anecdotal evidence, it has been stated on many financial forums and stages, that a married couple on $50k pay no effective tax after rebates and concessions are taken into account.
A married couple on 150k will pay about $ 50,000 in tax, medicare levy and private health insurance.
So effectively the difference in take home pay is $50k, which isn't to be scoffed at, it is still $1k a week.

The problem is though, increasing the concessions on the $50k earner( because they aren't paying effective tax), has to come from somewhere.

I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, but increasing concessions, means increasing tax.
This leads to the problem of increasing tax on the productive sector of the economy, makes the economy less competitive with other Countries.

There is no easy answer, everyone wants everything to stay the same, but we are in a downward spiral. To maintain everyones living standard and the welfare systems, everyone is going to have to pay more. One way or another.:D
 
Only anecdotal evidence, it has been stated on many financial forums and stages, that a married couple on $50k pay no effective tax after rebates and concessions are taken into account.
A married couple on 150k will pay about $ 50,000 in tax, medicare levy and private health insurance.
So effectively the difference in take home pay is $50k, which isn't to be scoffed at, it is still $1k a week.
At 50/50 income split (you didn't specify) it's closer to $30k than $50k.
 
Regressive and predatory, and this is the proof.

Do the math peeps ... $26,131 and increase of 6.7% = $33.67 per week without taking into account the FAS, CSA, Part A & B tax benefits, Health Care card blah de blah blah hand outs from guvmint.

Other end of the scale is $96.28 per week worse off. NO TAX BENEFITS .. NUFFIN !!!!!!!!!!

Oh but wait the graph is skewed to GST percentage of disposable income?? Statistics eh ??

"Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say." ~William W. Watt

Tax on 172k per annum is $52,000 = $2307 per week in hand and NO handouts

Tax on 26k per annum is $1,482 = $474 per week in hand and can receive up to 5k per annum in guvmint assistance from low wages to super contributions etc.

Get a grip people or soon enough the meek will inherit the earth and WHO will pay tax then to give the meek the money they deserve? (insert stupid look here)

50% of all income tax in Australia is paid by 10% of the working population.“ – Federal Treasurer Joe Hockey, interview with Fran Kelly on ABC RN Breakfast, July 27, 2015.
According to the 2015-16 Federal Budget, Australians paid around A$176 billion in personal income taxation in the 2014-15 financial year (Table 5 of Budget Paper 1). The Treasurer, Joe Hockey, claims that around 50% of this taxation is paid by the top 10% of the working age population as ranked by their income.

http://theconversation.com/factchec...ia-paid-by-10-of-the-working-population-45229

:banghead:
 
Also teaches the poor that it's not so nice being poor; better to be rich. That's how you encourage poor people to be rich - you get them to pay more for being poor and show them they'd be paying less if only they get off their behind.

That is a statement by someone that obviously hasn't lived / doesn't live, in the real world. :(
 
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