Should shorting be suspended/banned?

[chops_a_must]

Still thinking, thinking, thinking. ( got to keep you guessing a little longer, a moron doesn't have time to have an immediate answer to everything. Got to think of maintaining the image and I'm very busy trying to digest the other rubbish thrown at me. Then there is the fishing and the garden taking first place. Ah, it's a busy world.)

Right...

So because you can't answer a legitimate question because of an ideology, you deflect answering said question by claiming to be a stirrer.

I don't buy it.

 

[nioka]

I don't buy it.

And I'm not selling it. Even if I was you couldn't afford it.

 

[chops_a_must]

And I'm not selling it. Even if I was you couldn't afford it.

Lol.

Maybe if you increased the margin (like they tried to do with oil) to about a gazillion dollars.

The reason you wont answer the question is because you can't. Pretty simple really.

 

[nioka]

Lol.

Maybe if you increased the margin (like they tried to do with oil) to about a gazillion dollars.

The reason you wont answer the question is because you can't. Pretty simple really.

This has gone on so long and with my old age dementia I can't even remember the Question. By now you don't deserve an answer anyway.

End of story.

 

[IFocus]

This has gone on so long and with my old age dementia I can't even remember the Question. By now you don't deserve an answer anyway.

End of story.

Still Nioka good to see there is still life in the Old Dog

 

[Calliope]

Noika, I have a good news story for your tomentors.

In the Brisbane paper today they had a list of the 10 top Queenslanders in the 2008 BRW Young Rich List. And guess what;

Four of them were hedge fund traders.

 

[fordxbt]

Noika, I have a good news story for your tomentors.

In the Brisbane paper today they had a list of the 10 top Queenslanders in the 2008 BRW Young Rich List. And guess what;

Four of them were hedge fund traders.

wasnt one also a motor-cross rider !?
join krusty demons, break my body for $1mil per show, sure as hell alot better than the current market predicaments!

 

[nomore4s]

What about the guy who brought a coal mine for $30mil and then sold it to MCC for $275mil. Not a bad trade.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Noika, I have a good news story for your tomentors.

In the Brisbane paper today they had a list of the 10 top Queenslanders in the 2008 BRW Young Rich List. And guess what;

Four of them were hedge fund traders.

Yeah and they are long micro-cap Asian funds!!!!!!!!

Facts, my friends, help bust a lot of confusion.

 

[sam76]

The Crusty boys definately deserve every penny they get.

They are crazy mofos!

 

[nioka]

Noika, I have a good news story for your tomentors.

I thought I had done with this thread but I have to comment here. Don't label them tomentors, I don't consider that I have been tormented, I wouldn't allow that to happen. never have, never will. Verbally challenged, but over 70 odd years ago I was told that "sticks and stones may break your bones but words can never hurt you."
If someone insults you the best way to infuriate them is to agree with them.

That's enough rot, back to profitable investing.

 

[nomore4s]

That's enough rot, back to profitable investing.

Just because you call it "investing" doesn't change the fact that you are a trader. All you do is a form of pairs trading - just because you use F/A instead of T/A does not make it investing.

Even the tax dept class you as a trader.

You're quite happy to run around this forum boasting about how much money you made last FY but the thing is you've made it by trading stocks - how is this any different to any of the traders you dispise for not being legitimate investors?
You profit from the swings and roundabouts of the market, again no different from any other trader in the world.
Now you want to kick up a stink about "unethical" traders & hedge funds manipulating the market by shorting but were quite happy to profit from it while prices were going up - a bit hypocritical don't you think?

You've also jumped on your high horse in this debate but when asked questions about your stance and how this might affect other aspects of the market you obviously have no understanding of you deflect the questions and refuse to answer instead of just admiting you've got in over your head and you don't understand how that part of the market works. And then wonder why people take you to task.

<end of rant>

 

[lesm]

Looks like the Church of England has something to say.

British bishop calls speculators 'Bank Robbers'

LONDON, Sept 25 (Reuters) - A top Church of England bishop has told bankers those who speculate on falling share prices in the financial sector are 'Bank Robs'.

Archbishop of York John Sentamu, the church's second-ranking clergyman, targeted short-sellers who he said had driven Britain's biggest mortgage lender HBOS to accept a takeover bid from rival Lloyds TSB.

'To a bystander like me, those who made 190 million pounds ($353 million) deliberately underselling the shares of HBOS ... are clearly Bank Robbers and asset strippers,' he said in a speech to international bankers in London's financial district on Wednesday evening.

Sentamu's speech coincided with the publication of an article by the leader of the global Anglican church, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, also calling for better regulation of financial markets.

In an article in the Spectator magazine, Williams said the crisis 'exposes the element of basic unreality in the situation -- the truth that almost unimaginable wealth has been generated by equally unimaginable levels of fiction'.

Short sellers -- who sell borrowed stock hoping its price will fall so they can buy it back more cheaply -- have faced strong criticism for aggressively targeting banks such as HBOS, driving down their shares and undermining investor confidence.

Responding to the concerns, Britain and the United States have temporarily banned short-selling of financial stocks.

'We find ourselves in a market system which seems to have taken its rules of trade from 'Alice in Wonderland', where the share value of a bank is no longer dependent on the strength of its performance but rather on the willingness of the government to bail it out,' Sentamu said.

Williams also criticised lending and borrowing that was not about 'equipping someone to do something specific, but exclusively about enabling profit'.

EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES

Probing the causes of the global financial market crisis, Williams criticised some financial transactions as the invisible 'Emperor's new clothes'.

A collapse in U.S. subprime mortgages -- loans to borrowers with patchy credit histories -- has sent shockwaves through the global financial system.

Banks bundled together subprime mortgages and then parcelled them out to investors who thought they carried little risk. As liquidity dried up, the value of these securities has been marked down sharply.

Some financial institutions have either collapsed, been nationalised or forced to sell out to stronger rivals.

U.S. President George W. Bush's administration has proposed a $700 billion plan to bail out the U.S. financial system.

Echoing politicians such as French President Nicolas Sarkozy who have criticised financial market excess, Williams said there would have to be greater regulation of the financial sector.

The Association of Private Client Investment Managers and Stockbrokers, grouping more than 200 firms, hit back at the bishops' criticism of short-selling.

'It is market abuse which is wrong and this can occur both when holding either long or short positions,' the group's chief executive, David Bennett, said in a statement.

 

[wayneL]

 

[nioka]

Just because you call it "investing" doesn't change the fact that you are a trader. All you do is a form of pairs trading - just because you use F/A instead of T/A does not make it investing.

Even the tax dept class you as a trader.

You're quite happy to run around this forum boasting about how much money you made last FY but the thing is you've made it by trading stocks - how is this any different to any of the traders you dispise for not being legitimate investors?
You profit from the swings and roundabouts of the market, again no different from any other trader in the world.
Now you want to kick up a stink about "unethical" traders & hedge funds manipulating the market by shorting but were quite happy to profit from it while prices were going up - a bit hypocritical don't you think?

You've also jumped on your high horse in this debate but when asked questions about your stance and how this might affect other aspects of the market you obviously have no understanding of you deflect the questions and refuse to answer instead of just admiting you've got in over your head and you don't understand how that part of the market works. And then wonder why people take you to task.

<end of rant>

WOW!!!

Glad to see though that I have the same attitude to the matter as the Archbishop of York.

And now I see the German finance minister has joined in to support my point.

 

[nunthewiser]

Sept. 26 (Bloomberg) -- China's cabinet agreed to let investors buy shares on credit and sell borrowed stock to help develop Asia's second-largest market after prices and trading volumes slumped, an official familiar with the plan said. The State Council signed off on a China Securities Regulatory Commission plan submitted this month to allow margin lending and short selling, said the official, who declined to be identified as he isn't authorized to speak on the issue.


blessem

 

[chops_a_must]

This has gone on so long and with my old age dementia I can't even remember the Question. By now you don't deserve an answer anyway.

End of story.

Wow.

And you really proved your point there.

Others have asked you a legitimate question and it deserves to be answered.

Should shorting be banned from oil?

 

[wayneL]

WOW!!!

Glad to see though that I have the same attitude to the matter as the Archbishop of York.

Not many who know how markets work do though:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/alex_s...rchbishops_are_wrong_shortselling_is_virtuous

The archbishops are wrong: short-selling is virtuous
Posted By: Alex Singleton at Sep 26, 2008 at 11:32:34 [General]
Posted in: Politics
Tags:
Dr John Sentamu , Dr Rowan Williams , short-selling

Short-selling is like bank robbery, the normally-sensible Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, told an audience on Wednesday. And yesterday, his colleague, Dr Rowan Williams, showed his hostility to short-selling in a Spectator article that, oddly, managed to name check Marx but not God.

Gallery Photo
Archbishops of York and Canterbury both say short-selling is wrong

They are mistaken. Short-selling is a morally virtuous activity because it helps keep share prices honest.

The stock market acts as a big debating chamber. Each day between 8am and 4:30pm, investors argue about the value of each of the listed companies, based on their assessments of a company's likely future success.

It works because investors who are most accurate in their assessments secure the highest returns. That benefits the rest of the economy because the companies investors judge as having the best future plans are able to get the funding to expand.

However, if the only people who were allowed to participate in the debate about a stock were long-term stockholders, the incentive - if the books were cooked, or if there was some other hidden problem - would often be for everyone involved to keep stum.

Investors who sell short make the stock exchange function more effectively by providing a counterbalance. They give a financial incentive to tell the truth about companies and help push the price down to a more accurate level.

Short-selling "vultures" were blamed by Enron founder Kenneth Lay for pushing down Enron's share price before it collapsed. But they provided a useful service, hastening the demise of a company engaged in fraudulent accounting.

And Tyco campaigned against short-selling, paying for full-page advertisements in American publications; but here too the short-sellers provided a useful role in forcing out a director who had been involved in misappropriating over $400 million from the company.

Certainly, spreading false rumours in order to profit from short selling is unethical, but it is worth noting that most of the false rumours aimed at influencing stock are falsely positive ones, aimed at raising the price of a stock.

Needless to say, pulpits up and down the land this Sunday will be used to attack short selling by economically-illiterate clergy who think they are standing up against sin - but who, like the archbishops, are accidentally attacking virtue.

UPDATE: The Archbishop of York's office have been in touch to say that the Archbishop was not saying that short-selling is like bank robbery, just that: "To a bystander like me, those who made £190million deliberately underselling the shares of HBOS, in spite of its very strong capital base, and drove it into the bosom of Lloyds TSB Bank, are clearly bank robbers and asset strippers."

 

[chops_a_must]

I'd say the clergy are incredibly economically literate Wayne...

After all, for centuries they stole and controlled the wealth of the unquestioning, uneducated and illiterate masses. It's a pity none of them could short the church. They might have had to live up to their actual words and teachings then.

 

[wayneL]

I'd say the clergy are incredibly economically literate Wayne...

After all, for centuries they stole and controlled the wealth of the unquestioning, uneducated and illiterate masses. It's a pity none of them could short the church. They might have had to live up to their actual words and teachings then.

LOL good point.