Schapelle Corby - Innocent or Guilty?

[chops_a_must]

I do not know anyone with a real and genuine interest in human rights who makes value judgements on which issues are more important. To do so goes against the principles that underpin such interests and the compassion that those people have.

Of course they do!!!

It's implicit in the cases they choose to devote their time too!!!

Right now I could not give a toss about Schappelle because:

1) I personally think either her or a member of her family was guilty, and she was taking responsibility for it.

2) There is a case in Indonesia where our AFP proved to be grossly incompetent yet again, which will likely lead to the DEATHS of Australians. Not just imprisonment.

3) An Australian citizen is being locked up indefinitely for writing a paragraph.


In the face of that, I would questions someones value set, that deems Schappelle's case more important.

 

[schu]

there is an element of injustice in a clever criminal destroying lives with their drugs and getting away with it.

there is an injustice in people being free of any individual responsibility. like the responsibility to secure their property. the responsibility of ensuring you are not an unsuspecting drug mule.

justice works both ways .. and with freedom comes responsibility.

if she gets away with it.. can you imagine how many unsuspecting drug mules there would be? everyone would be an unsuspecting drug mule!

So you think that everyone who is set-up or framed for a crime should be convicted then? And that the onus is on them to prove beyond any and all doubt that they are innocent?

No-one is saying that people can simply claim to be an unsuspecting drug mule and that is enough. Under Australia's legal system that wouldn't be enough. But in order to demonstrate that they are a drug mule, the onus is on the prosecution to prove that they had knowledge of the drugs. And there is some onus on the defence (to the extent that a person doesn't want to be convicted) to challenge the prosecution's case to show reasonable doubt. In Schapelle's case, the prosecution never properly demonstrated that and there was more than enough to amount to reasonable doubt.

It would never be a matter of everyone with drugs on them simply saying they're an 'unsuspecting mule' and that's it. Of course there would be an investigation and trial. But they should be provided with a genuine opportunity under the country's legal system (and international fair trial standards) to be found not guilty if indeed they are innocent.

Tell me, if you were stopped by the police in Australia and they searched your car and found a kilo of heroin hidden in the boot and it was nothing to do with you at all and you'd never seen it before in your life, would you accept the blame and burden for that to the tune of 20 years?

 

[schu]

Of course they do!!!

It's implicit in the cases they choose to devote their time too!!!

Right now I could not give a toss about Schappelle because:

1) I personally think either her or a member of her family was guilty, and she was taking responsibility for it.

2) There is a case in Indonesia where our AFP proved to be grossly incompetent yet again, which will likely lead to the DEATHS of Australians. Not just imprisonment.

3) An Australian citizen is being locked up indefinitely for writing a paragraph.


In the face of that, I would questions someones value set, that deems Schappelle's case more important.

There is a difference between choosing to support a cause based on personal interest and actively slagging off other causes to their detriment. If you're not interested in this one, then why comment on it? Would you think it good for people to come in and slag off the causes that you find of interest?

Actually, I'll add something as well.

I find it odd that someone could take an interest in the Bali 9 but actively turn their nose up at Schapelle's situation because the two are inextricably linked. There are questionable actions of the AFP in her situation as well (just as there are questionable actions relating to Haneef). Indeed, there is a theory that the Bali 9 were essentially sacrificed by the AFP so the prosecution did not recommend the death penalty. Further, even if you believe in Schapelle's guilt, her trial demonstrates some of the significant issues with the Indonesian justice system and addressing those could help the Bali 9 as well (such as inconsistency in sentencing). Schapelle's circumstances, with the right support could have more impact because there are questions surrounding her guilt, whereas unfortunately with the Bali 9 they are unquestionably guilty.

I am not saying, in any sense whatsoever, that Schapelle's situation is more important - just highlighting the options relating to the AFP and Indonesia. It might interest you to know that I have actually spent far more time on the Bali 9 situation than on Schapelle's; it just so happens that this particular thread is focusing on Schapelle so that is where the discussion is centred. The irony is that people who support Schapelle have attacked me supporting the Bali 9 in reverse saying that she's innocent and they're guilty so she deserves more time and they deserve what they get.

Oh, and in the case of the Bali 9, I'd say that it was nothing to do with incompetence. The AFP made an active decision to knowingly expose them to the death penalty. From an Australian perspective, I think this is the most concerning aspect of the case (it's not THE most concerning aspect; obviously their lives are, but this has consequences for the entire nation). Back when the Bali bombings occured, the AFP wanted to offer assistance. But we were signatories to the Optional Protocol on the ICCPR that meant we (as in our law enforcement officials) could not assist where the death penalty might be the result. The government had their legal boffins do some interpreting and suddenly it was a matter of being able to assist up until the point where the charge was laid. This had never been the case before; it was a new interpretation. That interpretation paved the way for the AFP to effectively hand over the Bali 9, knowing they would be exposed to the death penalty. The documentation was released by the Rudd government under FOI.

 

[pilots]

Schu, You say you can never have a retrial, so whats the point of wasting your time here trying to make her look like she is Innocent.
Now Schu, I have not lied, I said what the Jakarta post said was transcripts of the trail, you said that the media In Australia is wrong, now you are saying that the Indonesian papers are the same. Schu, I can assure you that to find any expat in Indonesia who thinks she is Innocent will be VERY VERY HARD TO DO.
Schu, you if you know ANYTHING about Indonesia and its laws you would know that you could have a trial again, any time you want to.

 

[slim pickins]

Tell me, if you were stopped by the police in Australia and they searched your car and found a kilo of heroin hidden in the boot and it was nothing to do with you at all and you'd never seen it before in your life, would you accept the blame and burden for that to the tune of 20 years?

if this happened.... i would most definitely get 20 years. you really think i wouldnt?

BUT... if someone, by some very very remote chance did put 1 kilo of heroin in my boot. the odds are i would find it before the cops. i would hide it where god couldnt find it... and i would sell it by the hit. after 6 months i would retire a very rich man!

regarding the poeple that got off in similar circumastances in malaysia and thailand...... names, links... because i simply dont believe it. sorry

 

[Ado]

there is an element of injustice in a clever criminal destroying lives with their drugs and getting away with it.!

So you think that Schapelle is such a clever criminal? Clever enough to demand that her luggage be reweighed when she was apprehended - for what reason? Seriously, I want you to answer that question: why did Schapelle demand her luggage to be reweighed?

there is an injustice in people being free of any individual responsibility. like the responsibility to secure their property. the responsibility of ensuring you are not an unsuspecting drug mule.

So you think locks cannot be broken? Heck you can put locks on your luggage and if a baggage handler wanted to, he could rip the lock off - or push a pen in the zip to open it. How can you take precaution from that?

if she gets away with it.. can you imagine how many unsuspecting drug mules there would be? everyone would be an unsuspecting drug mule

LOL ... oh let me imagine!

And how many will request evidence that they cannot control ... that would be the telling factor!

Are you aware that that at the exact time Schapelle was in transit in Sydney, a passenger on board Lan Airlines Flight 801 landed in Sydney found that the 2 baggage items he checked-in in South America were missing. NSW police attested in court that one of the luggage pieces contained the 10Kg of cocaine. This passenger has not been charged with trafficking and NSW police say he is not part of the drug smuggling syndicate. Essentially they have said he is an innocent drug mule.

Thus at Sydney airport at exactly the same time, there was an unwitting drug mule flying into the country and another person with drugs in a boogie-baord bag departing the country, claiming to be a victim of a crime, who got 20 years. Coincidence?

 

[Ado]

Schu, You say you can never have a retrial, so whats the point of wasting your time here trying to make her look like she is Innocent.

Do you think its right for someone to be rotting in prison for a crime they didn't do, even if their appeal avenues have exhausted?

 

[slim pickins]

Seriously, I want you to answer that question: why did Schapelle demand her luggage to be reweighed?



Are you aware that that at the exact time Schapelle was in transit in Sydney, a passenger on board Lan Airlines Flight 801 landed in Sydney found that the 2 baggage items he checked-in in South America were missing. NSW police attested in court that one of the luggage pieces contained the 10Kg of cocaine. This passenger has not been charged with trafficking and NSW police say he is not part of the drug smuggling syndicate. Essentially they have said he is an innocent drug mule.

Thus at Sydney airport at exactly the same time, there was an unwitting drug mule flying into the country and another person with drugs in a boogie-baord bag departing the country, claiming to be a victim of a crime, who got 20 years. Coincidence?

perhaps, she asked for the luggage to be weighed because she correctly assumed that the airline had lost the recoreds or had deleted them after the fright returned from bali. after all the airport lost the tapes as well.

so why not create reasonable doubt and confuse the situation a little.

perhaps those lost airport tapes relealed without any doubt that she had it on her. not wanting to reveal their survailance capabilities AFP just said... we lost it....and then the AFP just said to the indonesians... go ahead take her out. wink wink nudge nudge.

indonesians being a thrifty nation did not want to waste furhter resources convincing the aussie public decided not to waigh anything.

now.

your Sth america flight. you see. the his bags were missing because the cops took them off the flight when they found the drugs. they called their friends in the DEA or CIA or whatever, and said.... we found heroin.... who was it? the yanks said.... "yeah, hang on let us check.............. oh, our guy at the airport, says the cartel stuck it in a passengers bag. better let the passanger go."

so they let him go... he was not a drug mule because he didnt attempt to carry 10 kg through customs. and he would have noticed an extra 10 kg.

you see the chances of customs finding any drugs anywhere is next to zero. its all tracked by agents from the poppy field to the wholesaler. when they bust someone its becasue of a tip off.

sometimes.... sometimes they have red flags they have to double check.. like unusual iteneraries, profuse sweating. etc.... but phisical symptoms can be controlled by certain drugs. iteneraries can be eliminated with a new passport. they know who to get and when.

why didnt they get corby in australia... because they would have had to get 3 undercover agents to testify and reveal their identities and spend milions training new ones and inflitrating the drug gangs from the very beginning.

this way... let the indo's do the dirty work. we reveal nothing and costs us very little. a nice clean job AFP... i congratulate you!!!

 

[pilots]

ADO, She is rotting in a jail for a crime she has been CONVICTED of, if she was tried here in Australia for the same crime she would be convicted as well, granted she would only get a slap on the wrist here. Get over it, you will never get her out, you lot go on saying OO poor Schapelle, but out in the real world, 9 out of 10 people say stuff her, rot in hell. PS, I truly believe she could be taking the rap for her brother.

 

[ZackW]

And so back, yet again, to this:

because it explains why so many people in Australia run around in circles repeating endless smears and lies. It has given confidence to seriously twisted people to post their hatred on forums like this one.

Is twisted the wrong word? I don't think so. How else do you explain someone who makes DOZENS of posts telling the world to walk away and leave this poor woman to suffer? How else do you explain the cruel terminology used, which exhibits relish and satisfaction at her misery? Examples?

Look at this:

How sad she is locked in a cage lol maybe she is vying for an acting career. Or maybe she had a rough night with the wardens.

and this:

You lame ducks can cry all you like, I would suggest that you stock up on tears, you will need them, as you still have 16 YEARS TO GO.

and this:

Hopefully Corby won't be able to corrupt the gene pool while she is incarcerated. So that's a plus.

This thread is full of sick posts like them. Would YOU be happy if your mother or your wife/husband were posting stuff like this, and were posting again and again and again trying to argue to have someone’s pain continue? Would you not be seriously questioning WHY? What motivates someone to be like that? What is wrong with them?


When the real issues and facts are presented, in this case superbly well by Schu, they squirm. They throw back low level sound bytes they have been fed by the media over the years. Sound bites and smears which in fact have all been totally discredited by research from people like Schu and others.

But they can't cope with it, so back we go around the circle. Repeat the smears yet again, because a few pages later they have already forgotten the answer they were provided with.


Largely, they don't even understand the issues in the first place. They don't grasp the concept of human rights. They don't understand the gross abuses which occurred with respect to Schapelle Corby, and they have no chance of understanding the implications of them.

They tell us to walk away and that she will never be free. They almost urge us to be like them. Personally, but seriously, I would rather not exist at all than be like that.

 

[Ado]

perhaps, she asked for the luggage to be weighed because she correctly assumed that the airline had lost the recoreds or had deleted them after the fright returned from bali. after all the airport lost the tapes as well.

so why not create reasonable doubt and confuse the situation a little.

perhaps those lost airport tapes relealed without any doubt that she had it on her. not wanting to reveal their survailance capabilities AFP just said... we lost it....and then the AFP just said to the indonesians... go ahead take her out. wink wink nudge nudge.

indonesians being a thrifty nation did not want to waste furhter resources convincing the aussie public decided not to waigh anything.

Keep making these ridiculous assumptions - coz you are losing cred real fast.

The combined luggage weight was printed on a sticker and stuck on her airline ticket. 65 Kg. Nothing to do with airport records. All that needed to be done was the Indonesians agreeing to weigh it ... the data was there ready to compare.

... and the customs officers didn't weigh them. Why? To give her a sporting chance???

There is only one reason why Schapelle wanted the luggage re-weighed. Because she knew that doing so would clear her name.

There is no other reason ... and its because of this (and other odd peculiarities within her trial), that Schapelle's supporters are growing in large numbers around the world.

 

[Ado]

your Sth america flight. you see. the his bags were missing because the cops took them off the flight when they found the drugs. they called their friends in the DEA or CIA or whatever, and said.... we found heroin.... who was it? the yanks said.... "yeah, hang on let us check.............. oh, our guy at the airport, says the cartel stuck it in a passengers bag. better let the passanger go."

so they let him go... he was not a drug mule because he didnt attempt to carry 10 kg through customs. and he would have noticed an extra 10 kg.

you see the chances of customs finding any drugs anywhere is next to zero. its all tracked by agents from the poppy field to the wholesaler. when they bust someone its becasue of a tip off.

sometimes.... sometimes they have red flags they have to double check.. like unusual iteneraries, profuse sweating. etc.... but phisical symptoms can be controlled by certain drugs. iteneraries can be eliminated with a new passport. they know who to get and when.

why didnt they get corby in australia... because they would have had to get 3 undercover agents to testify and reveal their identities and spend milions training new ones and inflitrating the drug gangs from the very beginning.

this way... let the indo's do the dirty work. we reveal nothing and costs us very little. a nice clean job AFP... i congratulate you!!!

What utter nonsense!!

The Fed didn't know anything about this cocaine until an informant told them about it 9 weeks later. So there were no cops to remove the bags from the flight... no CIA or DEA to contact. Just the coke and the MJ at the airport at the same time.

Apart from that, your theory will be submitted as the next James Bond plot. It was complete BS, but fun to read.

How much does 10Kg of coke cost to buy in Chile?
How much can 4.2 Kg of high grade MJ fetch on Sydney streets?

 

[Calliope]

This thread is full of sick posts like them. Would YOU be happy if your mother or your wife/husband were posting stuff like this, and were posting again and again and again trying to argue to have someone’s pain continue? Would you not be seriously questioning WHY? What motivates someone to be like that? What is wrong with them?
When the real issues and facts are presented, in this case superbly well by Schu, they squirm. They throw back low level sound bytes they have been fed by the media over the years. Sound bites and smears which in fact have all been totally discredited by research from people like Schu and others.

But they can't cope with it, so back we go around the circle. Repeat the smears yet again, because a few pages later they have already forgotten the answer they were provided with.
Largely, they don't even understand the issues in the first place. They don't grasp the concept of human rights. They don't understand the gross abuses which occurred with respect to Schapelle Corby, and they have no chance of understanding the implications of them.
They tell us to walk away and that she will never be free. They almost urge us to be like them. Personally, but seriously, I would rather not exist at all than be like that.

Personally I have much more sympathy for you than I have for Ms Corby. I am a relative newcomer to this thread so I am unaware of what your motivation is for joining the crusade to prove her innocence. I know Schu's motives. He apparently belongs to amnesty international who want to help all prisoners.

Is the Corby case the only "injustice" that you are concerned about? If so, why pick her?

You are obviously a decent person and if I have caused you hurt ,I am sorry.

 

[Ado]

ADO, She is rotting in a jail for a crime she has been CONVICTED of,

Correct, but she didn't do the crime and so the conviction is unjust.

Under Indonesian law (which is almost an oxymoron), prosecutors must present two positive pieces of evidence. They only had one - the MJ. To get the second they fabricated it.

if she was tried here in Australia for the same crime she would be convicted as well, granted she would only get a slap on the wrist here. Get over it, you will never get her out, you lot go on saying OO poor Schapelle, but out in the real world, 9 out of 10 people say stuff her, rot in hell.

Thats a brave assumption to make. And you are qualified to make such a statement because you hold what degree?

Do you think the police here would have done a crap investigation too?

PS, I truly believe she could be taking the rap for her brother.

Interesting! So now you are saying that Schapelle is not guilty.

But then I truly believe you could be only half committing yourself. C'mon go out on a limb ... how about "I truly believe she definitely is ...."

.... or is there part of you that thinks "wait a minute, what if ..."

 

[nunthewiser]

Correct, but she didn't do the crime and so the conviction is unjust.

Oh really ?? and you know this how?


geeeez this thread becoming more like a fairy tale story with every post that hits the screen

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Oh really ?? and you know this how?

nunthew, don't waste your breath on this rehash of old news.

This thread is an obvious ploy by Corby activists to raise her profile gain.

Yes she did
No she didn't.

Its pointless.

I believe she did.

gg

 

[Ado]

Have either of you read the latest new evidence?

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/12/prweb1803434.htm

 

[nunthewiser]

nunthew, don't waste your breath on this rehash of old news.

This thread is an obvious ploy by Corby activists to raise her profile gain.

Yes she did
No she didn't.

Its pointless.

I believe she did.

gg

yeah mate i decided to stop posting here before because of the same fantasy stories being posted by the same fanatics on a daily basis .....

But then i see a post declaring her actual innocence and reporting she is actually not guilty

just wondered how this new oracle knew this for a fact

my view remains the same .. do the crime .do the time...... other than that the law has spoken and aint she the halfwit for treading on the wrong countrys toes

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Have either of you read the latest new evidence?

No mate, I couldn't be bothered.

gg

 

[schu]

Schu, You say you can never have a retrial, so whats the point of wasting your time here trying to make her look like she is Innocent.
Now Schu, I have not lied, I said what the Jakarta post said was transcripts of the trail, you said that the media In Australia is wrong, now you are saying that the Indonesian papers are the same. Schu, I can assure you that to find any expat in Indonesia who thinks she is Innocent will be VERY VERY HARD TO DO.
Schu, you if you know ANYTHING about Indonesia and its laws you would know that you could have a trial again, any time you want to.

The only avenue for Schapelle now is a diplomatic one and the path to encouraging our government to do something is through public pressure. The more people support the cause, the better and the only way to do that is through information and correcting the inaccuracies that have thus far been allowed to fester.

Media publications are not reliable sources for information in any situation. They are a starting point, but what is written in them should never be taken as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because every one has an agenda, a perpsective and a bias. It is always important to get information from a variety of sources, ask questions, seek out facts and do your own analysis.

As for expats in Indonesia, we will have to agree to disagree on that point. But once again, I hardly see the relevance. The personal opinions of people who do not have all the facts are not really relevant to the situation. It is the facts and real circumstances that are.

Could you find me an commensurate example of a retrial in Indonesia after the judicial review was completed? Or, if not, could you provide me with information on how to get this retrial so the Corbys can pursue it?