wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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lesm said:Duc is spot on here.
Regardless of whether you use a 10% initial stop loss and/or a 2% trailing stop loss, it is a certainty that you are going to lose that percentage. Especially, if you are using an approach where you are waiting for the market to prove you wrong (i.e. your stop loss is hit before you exit the market/trade). This is what you see in a lot of trading systems.
The only variance is the actual realised $ value that the % stop loss equates to.
If you exit the market when a target profit (whether it is $ or % terms) is hit then the loss will not be realised, as the stop loss has not been triggered, hence no loss incurred.
cheers.
If I set an allocation of a 5% ( of purchase price) As an initial stop where is and how would you quantify uncontrolled risk?
Not withstanding the above you still have uncertainty in any one event you are exposed to unlimited risk,with an average of 25% loss a string of even 2 losses at the high end of the "Averaging" could render your initial capital in effective if you were to liquidate the loss and highly unlikely to recover as my example above shows if you hold it.
Purchasing 10 stock with this sort of uncertainty could be catastrophic.
In contrast T/T has 10 stocks and everyone of them is a winner.
Simply I cut losers and hold winners.
Duc hasnt answered string of losses and average number of consecutive losses V average consecutive winners.
I can bring these important aspects into the discussion when we have 2 benchmarks--duc's and mine.
On lagging.
The point of a buy trigger is anything but lagging.
The makeup of the analysis maybe lagging but the trigger itself is a point in time---infact its a NOW point.
Regardless of whether you use a 10% initial stop loss and/or a 2% trailing stop loss, it is a certainty that you are going to lose that percentage. Especially, if you are using an approach where you are waiting for the market to prove you wrong (i.e. your stop loss is hit before you exit the market/trade). This is what you see in a lot of trading systems.
Yes, you make assured losses, and most assuredly give back a piece of profit on exit, but in the context of profits generated by the system, these risks are accounted for and overwhelmed by the reward aspect of the equation.
Bull markets illustrate another point... targets can be exceeded by a long long way! The punters are pushing stocks WAY past fair valuation IMO.
No they are not.
if risk = uncertainity, then uncertainity must be converted to certainity. This is the purpose of a stoploss,......a stoploss = 100% loss, therefore, there is no uncertainity, there is no risk.
Regardless of whether you use a 10% initial stop loss and/or a 2% trailing stop loss, it is a certainty that you are going to lose that percentage.
I agree with your points re T/T .. leverage.. bull market.. etc.. even recall bringing those selfsame points up myself
Leverage is about 2.3 X and maximum initial drawdown is around 6% unleveraged so leveraged 15% of initial capital that was never hit and as the method is well underway never will be.
wayneL said:Tech,
It's not meant as a criticism of techtrader at all. As I've said before, under different circumstances than what I'm currently in, I would most certainly consider using T/T or similar.
Cheers
You misunderstand
Therefore I have an additional layer of risk management in place to potentially offset the risk that I have assumed
Indeed, but I don't want to lose any money..............not a single penny
Duc hasnt answered string of losses and average number of consecutive losses V average consecutive winners.
I can bring these important aspects into the discussion when we have 2 benchmarks--duc's and mine.
Disagree.
The higher the price, the greater the risk, the lower the price, the lower the risk. Therefore, by definition, buying *new highs* is riskier, than buying at a lower price, additionally, it lowers your ultimate return.
The *NOW* point, is better analyzed via fundamentals, than technicals, hence, technicals are lagging.
TT on closed trades, returned 9% compounded over 3yrs.
Returns will always = Wins% - Loss%
The higher the number of losing trades, even if all fall inside 10%, will provide a drag on the aggregate wins% when annualised and compounded. It is astounding as to just how much of a drag.
Thus a methodology, that utilizes a low Win% or a high Loss%, becomes reliant on leverage to generate the positive returns that make it an attractive proposition
There has been previous mention of the tested parametres........and should TT approach, or exceed drawdown, then it would be closed as the methodology has failed.
Now, by *outperforming* as apparently it has;
Does this constitute *failure* of the methodology?
Is outperformance considered a risk, viz. failure of methodology as tested?
wayneL said:Les,
Isn't that a bit of a psychological construct?
What matters is the bottom line... The discussion on risk is great, but without context when potential reward is ignored. I think trend following systems such as t/t illustrate that perfectly.
Yes, you make assured losses, and most assuredly give back a piece of profit on exit, but in the context of profits generated by the system, these risks are accounted for and overwhelmed by the reward aspect of the equation.
Bull markets illustrate another point... targets can be exceeded by a long long way! The punters are pushing stocks WAY past fair valuation IMO.
Is it better to take a fair profit? Or better to give back a small piece of a ludicrous profit? The answer is probably what is most psychologically appealling....and the effectiveness of the individual within their chosen disipline.
Cheers
Snake Pliskin said:lesm,
There is no certainty that it will be hit though. Therefore it is risk.
Regardless of whether you use a 10% initial stop loss and/or a 2% trailing stop loss, it is a certainty that you are going to lose that percentage. Especially, if you are using an approach where you are waiting for the market to prove you wrong (i.e. your stop loss is hit before you exit the market/trade). This is what you see in a lot of trading systems.
It is not unusual to see systems, where the exit is based solely on a stop loss being used (hit).
We can use more than one strategy (exit) that enables us to protect ourselves from untoward or a sudden reversal in market direction and puts us in a position to potentially maximise the profit.
If we consider why we are using a stop loss from a risk management perspective, isn't it to reduce the consequence or impact of the market going against us. Effectively managing the downside risk.
A contradiction in terms. Reality is that we will lose some money at times but overall we wish to be nett profitable---very profitable. Losing money in small amounts to open opportunity for larger profits is to me a wise way of managing money.
The other option of locking into an investment and waiting patiently for that time to come where demand exceeds supply isnt attractive,particularly at 50+.
( In 10 yrs time what will $500,000 buy you?) So If I retire at 55 and live till 85 thats a long time to support yourself as things get dearer.
So I take it you dont have these figures.
If I know that my loss will be capped at 2% (as an example) and that my longest string of losses over x period of testing is say 6 then my initial worst case drawdown would be expected to be 12%.
Now if I was to trade on Margin at 2.5 leverage then thats 30% of initial capital---that would be pretty well a maximum for me with any system.
If trading CFD's then there is a potential at 10x leverage to lose 120% so from a risk veiw--I'm not going to leverage anywhere near that!
Im afraid I have to disagree with your disagreement.Todays high could be tommorows low from the point of veiw of today.Now take a look at the chart below.Remember that the maximum risk I allowed myself on this and any other trade is actually 1% in this case on buying.That was around 36c.
Profit on the trade was $8.10 per share.In a shorter timeframe yes true.
Duc been through this before.The Average hold for this longterm system is over 1 yr so having open trades for longer is commonplace.Infact we have 1 over 3 yrs now and a few other over 2 yrs. Initial trades were expected to have some stop outs as the portfolio took time to do its thing ( find strong trends) so over the last 3 yrs only stops and 1 long term closed trade and a few that lasted a few months are recorded---about 9 from memory.
Thus a methodology, that utilizes a low Win% or a high Loss%, becomes reliant on leverage to generate the positive returns that make it an attractive proposition
But back to the above. Thats an interesting question I have had a chance to think about since you last bought it up.
See the results are an average or all trades (Each individual portfolio) so at times then the return even for years could well be way above the highest average,yet when averaged over say 8 yrs this is not seen.
Same is true of drawdown and is defined in Maximum Peak to Valley Drawdown.This makes sence to me that if the P/V drawdown is exceeded then you stop!! However if the performance is greater than the AVERAGE you couldnt say its failed as you dont know the maximum growth with in the average.
Even so why stop trading something that is doing better.
It could also be argued that you could and perhaps should reset the systems test x years down the track and get a "NEW BLUEPRINT" which would be different to the old.
Its human nature to protect initial capital and open profit.
The trailing stop and certainly the target price exit can be a two edged sword.While eliminating downside (Target) and minimising (Trailing stop) both can take you out of a trade like the one above. Leaving 100s of % without possibility of realisation.
Its not possible to let profits run employing risk management to the up side.
Your backtesting of T/T would have demonstrated this, as there would have been multiple entries and exits on different stocks during the backtesting period. Reduction of this behaviour would require considering the use of wider stops that would decrease the entry aand exit activity, but aware that you have tested this aspect and shown that it has no real affect on potential profitability.
If we plan our exits appropriately using the information in the chart, from both a price and volume perspective, that enables us to determine that the trend is starting to fail or lose strength exit the trade and subsequently re-enter when conditions change.
This is similar to using chart pattern setups for identifying potential trading candidates, we can also use chart pattern analysis for identifying potential exit setups. The tools we use today are far more advanced than those of a number of years ago and it is not that difficult to include more advanced methods, as part of of our trading methodology.
It's interesting that the The Phantom of the Pits identified and questioned the rationale of this approach. He also questioned why so many traders placed an emphasis on being proven wrong, by the market, as part of their trading strategy.
No not really, just a different philosophical paradigm.
Your paradigm states; to make money, I need to lose money.
My paradigm states; to make money, don't lose money.
The volatility of financial markets is still so high relative to other asset classes that if your *risk* is correctly calculated, the issue of time is marginalised. (you old b*****d)
It should pay for dinner.
No.
These do not have a material impact on my results.
Reason one; the win% is so high
Reason two; I do not leverage common stocks.
And as you have illustrated, these are the reasons I do not leverage.
For myself, any or all positions may show a paper loss of up to 99%
If leveraged, and unable to make margin calls..............curtains.
Call your disagreement, and raise it by $60000;
If we use an example of a fixed sum, $100
Our gross risk = 100% or $0.00 (with no risk management applied)
Therefore if you pay $10 per share, you have 10 shares, with unlimited reward (in theory)
I buy the same shares at $5, I have I have 20 shares, or twice the reward potential that you do. By paying less, I have skewed the Reward/Risk ratio in my favour. By doing so, I change the risk profile.
I could also give you a breakdown of why buying a *high* price, without regard to the *value* increases your risk, but that involves a lengthy discussion into finance.
Lastly, if your new *high price* was truely a low risk proposition as you suggest, then aggressive money management techniques would not be required, viz. a stoploss Therefore, as I buy the undervaluation, or low price, have no need of a stoploss, and have a high success rate, low price carries less risk.
Clarification of low price being low value.
You can have a low price, that represents a gross overvaluation, and a high price that represents an undervaluation.
Technical systems do not really distinguish between the two variants.
The results of any methodology have to be measured on actualised profit as open profits/losses are subject to change.
The total profitability of the methodology is measured on all the trades taken.
This is why diversification lowers returns. You are diluting all positions.
TT diversifies by exiting non-productive trades as defined by initial stoploss, and remains in trades that produce. The actualised results generate the return with the timeframe accounted for as an accrural.
This is why TT on last update that I saw of closed trades had returned an actualised 9% compounded per annum. Leverage, when applied results in an actualised return of 9% * 2.5 = 22.5%/annum
And thats fine, however, could not the same reasoning be applied in reverse?
If it under performs, then over 8yrs it may come back on line?
Which really begs the question, if you classify failure as exceeding an arbitrary point, consistency would demand the same metric to be applied at the other end, viz. over performance. If you have this inconsistency, then the whole basis of testing is fallacious, and you might as well toss it, unless you can justify outperformance and account for the results.
Of course, human nature being what it is, many will only question and search for weakness when adversity strikes.........if it works, don't fiddle.
This however highlights my previous concerns as to finding a methodology that works in all market conditions.
TT may be vulnerable to market conditions, it may not be. The point is do you know?
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