Returns achievable for Futures trading

[Valued]

You can work out an average hourly rate over a good sample size e.g. a year. The larger the sample, the more accurate it will be. If you trade non stop for one million years your average hourly rate will be highly accurate.

 

[tech/a]

You can't really compare trading to a per hour wage. Obviously you can make huge amount in a little time but it does not take into account many other factors such as:
1. its not 100% replicable. You might not be able to make the same amount the next 30 minutes. You are even less likely to repeat it every single time next few 30 minutes. I don't think the best day trader in the world can randomly pick few sessions to trade and make $1300 every single time without fail for the rest of his life.
2. does not take into account loss. People can have a killer trade and said they make X few grand in X few minutes and compare it to a wage but if you add up their total trades and their losses including all their time spent, it's not going to be the $X/hour they were claiming.
3. no guarantee. You cannot enter into a contract with the market that everyday you will trade this four hours and it will give you the $1300/30mins for that whole shift. You might sit for hours at $0/hour or negative ($1000)/hour.

Sure I make losses
Mostly brokerage $6
Sure I have trades of less than $1300
And sure I have trades well in excess of $1300.

Point I'm making is that once you know how to trade it's
Money for Jam.
Complicate it and argue it all you like

 

[CanOz]

Sure I make losses
Mostly brokerage $6
Sure I have trades of less than $1300
And sure I have trades well in excess of $1300.

Point I'm making is that once you know how to trade it's
Money for Jam.
Complicate it and argue it all you like

Would be quite curious on your FTSE record Tech, you've been trading it for quite a while now so must have a reliable sample of trades by now.

 

[tech/a]

Would be quite curious on your FTSE record Tech, you've been trading it for quite a while now so must have a reliable sample of trades by now.

What do you want?

I don't trade for a living
Don't have to --- don't want to.
I'll trade once a week
3 times a week.
Nothing for a month.
I don't need to trade. If I'm at the computer
The trade is staring at me I'll take it.
Often I'll set the stop and go to bed.
Often I'll get up and have been stopped out at B/E
Every now and again I'll wake up with 100 to 3000 pounds.

I can't see what all the fuss is about.
There is a vehicle at people's disposal which can make them
A living and or a tidy second income.
Sure you have to invest a few 1000 hrs.

Let's trade live and see the results over time for the time and effort.
Will do it on the FTSE thread.
Or start a thread specifically based around this premise
Easy money for time spent.
Let m know and I'll crank a thread.

 

[TheUnknown]

FTSE ay...

 

[CanOz]

What do you want?

Just thought you have some stats to share by now, honestly I think they would be good for others to see, TH shares his P/L charts (all be it without the figures) to illustrate the ups and downs. Just thought you would have the stats handy Tech, that's all. Even an equity curve. Being the experienced trader you are i'm guessing you have a nice equity curve, maybe a win% in the low 40s and a nice R/R....

Don't mean it to become a pissing contest. Just sincerely asking for the sake of the people interested in seeing what a real record looks like.

 

[TheUnknown]

Just thought you have some stats to share by now, honestly I think they would be good for others to see, TH shares his P/L charts (all be it without the figures) to illustrate the ups and downs. Just thought you would have the stats handy Tech, that's all. Even an equity curve. Being the experienced trader you are i'm guessing you have a nice equity curve, maybe a win% in the low 40s and a nice R/R....

Don't mean it to become a pissing contest. Just sincerely interested for the sake of the people interested in seeing what a real record looks like.

Yeah..that would be good for people to see how a real record looks like...

 

[Valued]

What do you want?


Sure you have to invest a few 1000 hrs.

What did you spend those thousands of hours doing exactly though? Was that all solid learning or did you get side tracked by things that didn't work?

There really needs to be a study guide lol.

 

[tech/a]

Just thought you have some stats to share by now, honestly I think they would be good for others to see, TH shares his P/L charts (all be it without the figures) to illustrate the ups and downs. Just thought you would have the stats handy Tech, that's all. Even an equity curve. Being the experienced trader you are i'm guessing you have a nice equity curve, maybe a win% in the low 40s and a nice R/R....

Don't mean it to become a pissing contest. Just sincerely interested for the sake of the people interested in seeing what a real record looks like.

I'd have to hand plot the trades.
All I do is supply the p/l to my accountant with
My personal tax each year.

Happy to get involved in a pissing contest though.
Love a challenge.

 

[CanOz]

Happy to get involved in a pissing contest though.
Love a challenge.

I'll consider this...

It just depends if i get hired or not, if not i'll be able to start trading again in January.

We can set some ground rules now though if you like.

Shall i start a thread or you?

 

[tech/a]

I'll consider this...

It just depends if i get hired or not, if not i'll be able to start trading again in January.

We can set some ground rules now though if you like.

Shall i start a thread or you?

Crank it up.
Perhaps private mail me your ground rules and we can nut em out
Before unleashing them on the board.

 

[CanOz]

Crank it up.
Perhaps private mail me your ground rules and we can nut em out
Before unleashing them on the board.

PM sent....

 

[tech/a]

PM sent....

Like the concept.
Your trading method is at right angles to mine.
Mainly because it's not something I have investigated myself.
Very keen to see how you go for personal curiosity and education.

Happy to go head to head straight long/short Futures.
FTSE/DAX will be my choice.

 

[wayneL]

Where's FrankieD?

I'd love to get him in on this.

Frank? I know you're reading this.

 

[beachlife]

I don't trade for a living

Does that mean you earn the bulk of your income from something else?

 

[tech/a]

Does that mean you earn the bulk of your income from something else?

Yes
I own a Civil Construction Company
And was " Lucky Enough " to be heavily
Involved in property from 1995 - well now.
Ive probably been on the planet longer than most here.

Passive or least effort income ( other than the Company )
Is my focus.
Along with more living and enjoying what time I have left here!

 

[beachlife]

Yes
I own a Civil Construction Company
And was " Lucky Enough " to be heavily
Involved in property from 1995 - well now.
Ive probably been on the planet longer than most here.

Passive or least effort income ( other than the Company )
Is my focus.
Along with more living and enjoying what time I have left here!

So can safely assume quite wealthy, that's great. But that poses the problem, especially for newbies trying to learn, that the capital required to be risked to earn your $1300 per trade is less significant to you that it would be to someone with say $20k account, and if your capital is significantly higher, your % return on capital might be quite small. The only way to make it a level playing field is to bring it back to percenatges, not $$$.

Also you have no real pressure. If you lose, you know you have income coming in from elsewhere, if you dont trade for a month, no big deal. Very different to the trader that has no other source income.

I think its important to make this distinction.

 

[tech/a]

So can safely assume quite wealthy, that's great. But that poses the problem, especially for newbies trying to learn, that the capital required to be risked to earn your $1300 per trade is less significant to you that it would be to someone with say $20k account, and if your capital is significantly higher, your % return on capital might be quite small. The only way to make it a level playing field is to bring it back to percenatges, not $$$.

Also you have no real pressure. If you lose, you know you have income coming in from elsewhere, if you dont trade for a month, no big deal. Very different to the trader that has no other source income.

I think its important to make this distinction.

I don't know about that.
PAV doesn't seem to have a problem.

While I understand what your saying as I've been in that position many times
Over the years.
I still believe that good risk management can instill confidence.

 

[cynic]

You can.

A couple of small disadvantages.
1. You pay interest on long positions, but only if held overnight.
2. Your prices are the spread, so you can get flicked out or miss out. eg the spread might reach 5025/5026. Lets say your stop is 5025, it may never really trade there, it might trade at 5026 and go back up, but if the spread goes there for a couple of seconds, you will be filled with a cfd.
The other way is the same. Say the spread is 5025/5026 and your target is 5026. The market may trade at 5026 (meeting the ask) and then reverse. Because the bid never got to 5026, you will not be filled. The spread has to reach 5026/5027 for the cfd to be filled. I have missed profits a couple of times because of this, but not too often.
3. The spread might be a bit wider.

But for me the ability to position size exactly out weighs these. Except for an MT4 Ea that I run on 15min chart, all of my end of day trades are using cfd's, no matter if bhp, msft, oil, beans, or fx.

Further to the disadvantages mentioned there are additional counterparty risks associated with OTC CFD's. The provider will normally not be obliged to quote prices in alignment with the actual market at all times. OTC CFD providers are widely rumoured to have been exploiting this freedom to the detriment of their clients!

In respect to charges for holding positions overnight, a few further things are worth mentioning:

(i) Interest charges may also be incurred on short positions if the interest rate is particularly low!!!
(ii) Certain CFDs can also involve debits/credits to the clients account in lieu of dividends.
(iii) When trading indices, annoying charges in respect to interest and dividends can usually be avoided by trading CFDs over the actual forward/futures contracts, however, a larger spread will usually apply.

 

[Valued]

I dislike a lot about OTC CFDs but at the same time ASX CFDs really limit what you can do. The ASX CFDs only allow you to trade in 50 stocks while for OTC Commsec says you can trade 600.

It's difficult to find the cost for OTC CFDs though. It's not clear in the PDS. I am not sure why you incur a borrowing cost for OTC CFDs when shorting stocks. Is it something to do with them hedging? They don't explain what this cost is either.