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Religion IS crazy!

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Thank you, young-gun, for the interesting explanation of your beliefs which sound to me like a pretty good basis for a decent life.

I don't totally agree that one's attitude can completely influence life's events: plenty of very decent, positive, contributing people have had awful stuff happen to them, but know what you're getting at. We can indeed attract good stuff toward us by our attitude and vice versa.

Look forward to hearing about your fiancee's psychic meeting if you feel disposed to discuss it. So much that we don't understand.
 
I like the way this discussion has turned.
From rejection as "crazy" of especially the three "Religions of the Book", to a humane set of suggestions how to "be a good person". Maybe a new Topic altogether?

Thanks Julia, for eliciting a very interesting reply.
But far more so, thanks to Young-Gun, for presenting a mature view. Have you, by any chance, read Seneca's "De Vita Beata"? A first quick search suggests there may be some useful translations available; first cab off the rank looks like a condensed version; rather well translated too:
http://www.amareway.org/holisticliving/02/seneca-de-vita-beata-quotes/

Hopefully, this discussion can continue.
 
Julia said:
Thank you, young-gun, for the interesting explanation of your beliefs which sound to me like a pretty good basis for a decent life.

I don't totally agree that one's attitude can completely influence life's events: plenty of very decent, positive, contributing people have had awful stuff happen to them, but know what you're getting at. We can indeed attract good stuff toward us by our attitude and vice versa.

Look forward to hearing about your fiancee's psychic meeting if you feel disposed to discuss it. So much that we don't understand.
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thanks for pointing that out julia, positive thinking is by no means going to achieve absolutely miraculous results. your environment, where you were born, the people that surround you all have an affect. but one thing i would like to point out, if a positive person has had something bad happen to them, it was probably due to a far more negative type person entering there lives in some way. eg abusive husband, drunk driver, murderers etc. i know i havent covered everything but we could go on for hours.

"so much that we don't understand". couldnt agree with you more, and it is for this reason that i find religion to be so flawed. people have devoted their lives to researching exactly this discussion, and havent even scratched the tip of the ice berg in my opinion, nor will anyone in the next few thousand years. at the end of the day everything might be as it is because it just is . perhaps there is no reason, no higher being, no good or bad, everything simply exists for the sake of existing.

i think the vast majority of people wouldnt believe this, but there are some that do. the thing with religion is that majority of people NEED to believe something, they NEED to feel apart of something, and have a need to justify why bad things happen, and also need to justify why we are here and how we were created. its this need that has caused us to arrive where we are. all cultures and races have this need, so all cultures and races have filled the void with their own view on how it came about. this has evidently caused division and wars and suffering due to conflicts in beliefs.

why didnt jesus make a quick stop over in all other countries to allow everyone to meet him and develop their own opinion? and see the son of christ first hand so there was no doubt? i know if there was no doubt, then there would be no one(or far less people) sinning, perhaps this defeats the purpose of creating a world full of sinners and seeing what happens.
 
pixel said:
I like the way this discussion has turned.
From rejection as "crazy" of especially the three "Religions of the Book", to a humane set of suggestions how to "be a good person". Maybe a new Topic altogether?

Thanks Julia, for eliciting a very interesting reply.
But far more so, thanks to Young-Gun, for presenting a mature view. Have you, by any chance, read Seneca's "De Vita Beata"? A first quick search suggests there may be some useful translations available; first cab off the rank looks like a condensed version; rather well translated too:
http://www.amareway.org/holisticliving/02/seneca-de-vita-beata-quotes/

Hopefully, this discussion can continue.
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i havent actually read too much on the topic. i will have a look into it later on today though.
 
young-gun said:
why didnt jesus make a quick stop over in all other countries to allow everyone to meet him and develop their own opinion? [...] i know if there was no doubt, then there would be no one(or far less people) sinning, perhaps this defeats the purpose of creating a world full of sinners and seeing what happens.
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Good point, y-g; and the key reason why I fail to reconcile the claim of an all-powerful, benevolent, and most of all just divine being, with the assurance that he/she should play favourites, elevating a chosen few that happen to have lived around one little patch of dirt, yet condemn all others to rot in hell because they're heathens, infidels, subhumans.
Fictions like that may have made sense in those pre-historic times when the defense of the central dung heap or grass paddock was essential to the tribe's survival; hence every aspect of life had to be ruled by the "Us vs Them" maxim.
IMHO one significant reason why people resort to one specific variety of Divine Truth even today is their need to belong, to differentiate themselves from every other group. Hence the proliferation of sects, especially in underprivileged community sectors: "We are struggling here and now against the Big Bad World out there. But Brother (or "bro!") you just wait for the Rapture! We'll be the good ones, and everybody else be damned!"

Could it be that Buddhism is more peace-oriented because soil, climate, hence "survival", were easier in the region? Maybe worth checking out.
 
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young-gun said:
thanks for pointing that out julia, positive thinking is by no means going to achieve absolutely miraculous results. your environment, where you were born, the people that surround you all have an affect. but one thing i would like to point out, if a positive person has had something bad happen to them, it was probably due to a far more negative type person entering there lives in some way. eg abusive husband, drunk driver, murderers etc. i know i havent covered everything but we could go on for hours.
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What I was originally thinking of was life threatening illnesses happening to people who have lived an apparently healthy and reasonably happy life. But you may be right, and there may be stressors in people's lives that are not outwardly visible but which have an adverse effect on physical health.

I had a good friend die from a brain tumour two years ago. She existed in an immensely stressful marriage. I've often wondered if that accumulated stress was a factor in her illness.

I do agree about the unwelcome presence of negative people in our lives.
It's not uncommon for us to blame ourselves for unpleasantness in a relationship when what we need to do is dismiss that negative person from our environment.
i think the vast majority of people wouldnt believe this, but there are some that do. the thing with religion is that majority of people NEED to believe something, they NEED to feel apart of something, and have a need to justify why bad things happen, and also need to justify why we are here and how we were created.
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Agree. Hence the perennial question "what is the meaning of life?" and other similar unanswerable questions.

pixel said:
IMHO one significant reason why people resort to one specific variety of Divine Truth even today is their need to belong,
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Yes, some people will turn to religion purely out of loneliness. It's the one aspect of religion that I quite like, i.e. that the Salvos etc provide a place of support and friendship for people who are for whatever reason alienated from society at large.

to differentiate themselves from every other group. Hence the proliferation of sects, especially in underprivileged community sectors: "We are struggling here and now against the Big Bad World out there. But Brother (or "bro!") you just wait for the Rapture! We'll be the good ones, and everybody else be damned!"
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There are some quite astonishing examples of this amongst highly intelligent, well educated people. I usually go along with the suggestion that the more education someone has the less disposed they will be to believe in religious stuff.
But I know a couple of Seventh Day Adventists, nicest people you could ever meet, both employed in high level academic positions, who absolutely believe the Seventh Day Adventists will be 'saved' and everyone else will go to Hell. I just do not get this.
We are only able to remain friends by never discussing religion at all.
 
Julia said:
I know a couple of Seventh Day Adventists,....
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Funny you should say that, Julia;
I have a similar couple of friends, who even among themselves aren't sure who is going to be saved; only one partner has this utter conviction, the other is pretty much open-minded. For the sake of blissful coexistence, they don't discuss the finer points even with each other.

However, I had more the small congregations in Southern USA and - until 1989 - the former "Democratic Germany" in mind. Especially in the latter, the religious congregation was the only place where people could feel safe and "speak up" without fearing the knock at the door after midnight. If you were a dissident in that situation, your only hope of salvation was in the hereafter - until some less fearful youngsters jumped onto the Wall and knocked it down. And since then, some of the mulish "conviction" has leveled off and even the previously "fundamentalist" Christians are beginning to open up to others again...
 
Instead of all this speculation, how bout making an effort to find out if God is real for yourself?

The common paths are:

Meditation - there are two broad types of meditation, one which leads to altered states of consciousness, the other to Truth realization (or God/Unity consciousness). If you're a Christian, substitute the words "contemplative prayer" - same thing.
Drugs - hallucinogens/dissociatives such as DMT, psilocybin, LSD

Both meditation and drugs have risks attached to them. Few know about the risks of meditation, but they certainly exist. Drugs are the 'fast and dirty route', and even then, you only get a glimpse of the 'other' ..(you could also end up in a psychiatric ward if you're not careful). When the altered states of consciousness get boring, one can turn ones attention to the end goal of meditation which is ego death, or no-self realization.

Just like with trading, if you go looking for information on the web about meditation or God or whatever, be prepared for any search to yield 99% bullsh1t. You have to find the 1%.


Some of the 1% can be found on this list, including a few Aussies:

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/ratings.htm
for drug experiences, try www.erowid.org
 
I believe I have mentioned twice on this forum how Muslims are infiltrating into the Western World in droves and it is also one's belief that 90% of illegal boat people entering Australia are Muslim thanks to are cuurent government.

Whilst the source of the following is unknown, I believe to be true and I will ASF readers judge for themselves.

PART : (1)


CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD Australians? This is certainly 'food-for-thought' .

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our Australian Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.



Can a good Muslim be a good Australian?



This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.



The following is his reply:



Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .
 
PART(2)


Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam . (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)


Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.


Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.


Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .


Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America the great Satan, Australia and the rest of the free world.


Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )


Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the Australian Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.


Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Australians [or good Englishmen or good Americans!]. Call it what you wish, it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country [ and yours] and our future.


The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....


Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.


THE AUSSIE DIGGERS WANT THIS TO ROLL OUT ALL OVER AUSTRALIA .


Please don't delete this until you send it on.
 
Julia said:
What I was originally thinking of was life threatening illnesses happening to people who have lived an apparently healthy and reasonably happy life. But you may be right, and there may be stressors in people's lives that are not outwardly visible but which have an adverse effect on physical health.
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sorry illness completely slipped my mind. i can't explain nor do i have an argument or logical reasoning as to why good people contract such illnesses/diseases etc. nor am i sure if positive or negative thinking has an affect on ones ability to contract or fight off such things.

the reason i say scrap religion and bring in a broad motto is simple. those who are religious are not necessarily good people. there is so many things wrong with the world that it angers me just thinking about it, and i cant even think where to begin.

thanks to noco for that informative post. this is one dam scary religion. their beliefs are so primitive and so dangerous! if the world were to adopt such views as a whole we would be taking 100 steps backwards IMO. i am absolutely not racist by any interpretation of the term, but if a religion involves beating women, eradicating those who dont serve under it, killing in the name of, and extremist behaviour, then to me it is not ok. I cant comment too much on it as i don't personally know any muslims, and am unaware just how many of them actually live and breath their religion, and follow it 'religiously'. but isnt one too many when views and beliefs of this nature are involved?

i dont mean to single out just this one in particular, but it is the only religion i am familiar with the i consider to be a worry.

@ gringotts bank - i think its debatable as to whether drugs merely give the illusion of being apart of something bigger, or whether they actually alter the mind and body to different frequencies(call it what you will) which put you more in-tune so to speak. they most definitely evoke some very deep thoughts and an apparent higher state of consciousness.

back on topic - religion is most definitely crazy, and it has the potential to do some serious, serious damage.

this topic does my head in.
 
AbrasiveCamel said:
You should probably read this and then self-reflect...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/intelligence-study-links-prejudice_n_1237796.html
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You should probably investigate proper scientific method and then self-reflect.

From the comments:

As a scientist, I was interested in this conclusion and went back and read the original article - it's free online, if you're interested*. Cognitive abilities were measured in individual*s as pre-teens and attitudes about social conservati*sm and race were measured in the same individual*s when they were 30 or older. Social conservati*sm was measured with 7 questions about respect for authority. Racism was measured with 5 questions. The authors go on to create a mathematic*al model of the relationsh*ip between intelligen*ce, socio-econ*omic status, conservati*ve ideology and racial attitudes. This is, in my opinion, over-inter*pretation of the data, especially given the simplistic instrument used to measure attitudes about race.

Another way to test this theory would be to see how many "unintelli*gent" children chose, as adults, to commit hate crimes or to join racist organizati*ons. If lack of intelligen*ce is a causal factor for racism (as the authors suggest), then this effect should be seen in many different measures.

As a mathematic*al modeler myself, I am highly skeptical of most models. The study is fairly large - over 3000 men and 3000 women. Nonetheles*s, I wonder if it might have been better for the authors to note a correlatio*n between intelligen*ce measured as a child and attitudes towards conservati*sm and race as an adult and ask what else could contribute to these factors. Indeed, an exploratio*n of the counterfac*tual was sorely lacking in this paper.
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I would say most on this forum are against any form of religion but Muslims are to be feared the most.
 
Religion isn't relevant to anything. The people who ought not believe in it because of conflict of interest (scientist), cannot believe in it by definition of a scientist (someone who is smart, educated).

For the everyday person, I see no reason why a belief in god is going to be detrimental to their parenting, commerce, everyday life skills...
 
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