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Religion IS crazy!

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See your point Julia but do think that all fields of study should be introduced at the school level. From my experience religion is a good start to philosophical concepts or questioning outside the realms of the concrete/here and now. You would think that the yays and nays would have some lively discusions in the school yard instead of suspicion and isolation as we had when I was a kid between the orange and the green.

A sadly lacking subject is economics at the general level, even if just about pocket money and how to make it work properly. To my own chagrin I was very wet behind the ears in this area till I retired from my profession, which is too late.

No Gillard and Co in my view are a ship without a rudder and led by what they decipher as populist thinking.
 

And this is where you have failed.

1. We do not know in totality of beginnings, but we know of beginnings. It has already been established that our reality had a birth.

2. Immateriality is not nothing. "Nothing" is indefinable, as it is impossible. Immaterial simply means it is made up of non-matter. Example; The law of gravity is immaterial, as are laws of logic etc.

3. Your belief of a beginningless and endless Universe has already been toppled by modern science. If anything your "belief" IS indeed faith based due to your belief being contrary to consensus and evidence.

4. Spirituality is a concept that cannot be materially verified with the CURRENT scientific dogma. As is the mind, fundamental Universal properties, Laws of nature etc.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth". There is no denying the beginning, and the creation.

Your belief of an eternal reality is not only contrary to evidence, consesnsus and science itself; it is also contrary to philosophy - and not even Modern philosophy.

I do not wish to devaluate your methodology of thought, but it would be benifitial to take a look at all things as a third person. You can see there are several points of reconsiliation, as well as points of conflict.

The bottom line of my original posts was to demonstrate that there is no war between Science and Religion. This is a myth, and Lennox does a good job at explaining it.
 
explod said:
See your point Julia but do think that all fields of study should be introduced at the school level. From my experience religion is a good start to philosophical concepts or questioning outside the realms of the concrete/here and now.
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As long as it's taught as philosophy and not hard facts I'd agree. Teaching kids Genesis as how the Universe was created and understanding right from wrong lacks some credibility these days.
 
LostMyShirt said:
We don't know the motivations behind the texts, and they are subject to much study.
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That may be your religious viewpoint, but for many fundamental Christians, the bible is God's word and is to be taken literally. A literal interpretation of Genesis is thus in conflict with Science. You didn't confine your statement to "my religion", but religion in general.


A lot of what people regard as the mind is explainable today by Science. If the mind were immaterial, it would not require a physical dimension. Yet, we know that the mind doesn't exist outside a body and specifically without that part of the body called the brain. A lot of the psychology of the mind, dealing with what you would regard as immaterial things (emotions) are now being mapped to specific parts of the brain and to specific chemical reactions.

Immateriality is not only an aspect of mind, but of the fundamental properties of the Universe.
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If you say so, but I haven't a clue what you mean by that.

1. Everything that had a beginning, had a cause.
2. The Universe has a cause.
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1. except for those things that had a beginning but didn't have a cause.
2. there are scientists that dispute that, hence 1 is only a hypothesis.

If Natural selection be true, that being the driving force that "chooses" the best traits, then that in itself is a bigger miricle than walking on water.
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Natural selection is true. Natural selection doesn't "chose" the best traits. The fact that the best traits survive is what natural selection means. Completely provable and utterly logical. No miracle needed there.

Personaly, when it comes to the philosophy of creation and beginnings, I believe in evolutionary targets.
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I am not sure I understand what your implying, but evolution, as understood by Science, doesn't have targets. There is no intent to evolve into anything in particular. Evolution works through natural selection and what we end up with is what we end up with. Intent only comes into play when modern science, through its understanding of the evolutionary process, overrides natural selection, by changing the odds in favour of what would otherwise have been an unlikely outcome. For example, by selective breeding a particular species of plant or animal.
 
LostMyShirt;677205]And this is where you have failed.
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Okay, we all fail all the time.

1. We do not know in totality of beginnings, but we know of beginnings. It has already been established that our reality had a birth.
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We know that matter in particular circumstances created a cell that multipled.

2. Immateriality is not nothing. "Nothing" is indefinable, as it is impossible. Immaterial simply means it is made up of non-matter. Example; The law of gravity is immaterial, as are laws of logic etc.
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Basically, if you look it up, "it bears no physical substance"

3. Your belief of a beginningless and endless Universe has already been toppled by modern science. If anything your "belief" IS indeed faith based due to your belief being contrary to consensus and evidence.
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See answer to 1. above. And just a part of the endless shift of the total physical object.


4. Spirituality is a concept that cannot be materially verified with the CURRENT scientific dogma. As is the mind, fundamental Universal properties, Laws of nature etc.
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To the first point agree. Your second part is muddled, the mind is whatever it wants to think or believe.

"Fundamental Universal properties", on what basis?

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth". There is no denying the beginning, and the creation.
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Is that so, give me your description.

Your belief of an eternal reality is not only contrary to evidence, consesnsus and science itself; it is also contrary to philosophy - and not even Modern philosophy.
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It is not a belief but the only way that it can be seen till someone can prove otherwise. What you see is what you get.


I do not wish to devaluate your methodology of thought, but it would be benifitial to take a look at all things as a third person. You can see there are several points of reconsiliation, as well as points of conflict.
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No conflict in my take, you have to convince me.

The bottom line of my original posts was to demonstrate that there is no war between Science and Religion. This is a myth, and Lennox does a good job at explaining it.
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Religion has always been at war with science, pull the other one.
 
I've been reading the recent posts on this thread with interest and have noticed a recurrent theme where posters describe science as being distinct from religion.

Science happens to be one of my favourite religions.

Anyone who cares to perform an objective investigation into the history and development of many of our modern day branches of science will almost certainly discover that many have religious origins (i.e. chemistry/alchemy, surgery/chirurgery. astronomy/astrology, mathematics/numerology etc.).

So those (myself included) whom choose to subscribe to scientific viewpoints might want to be just a little more appreciative of the true pioneers (i.e. those religious zealots throughout history whom were "faithful" enough to make explorations/investigations into the unknown). After all these were the true pioneers of one of our most popular modern day religions, that religion that we call science.
 

As Neil deGrassi Tyson (sp.) aptly put it, Science is more a verb than a noun. It is a methodology for doing things and knowing things. The complete opposite of the methodology used by religion.

Do not confuse bad science, which there is some of, with science as it is meant to be.

Also, because some religious people are scientists and some scientists are religious, doesn't make science a religion.
 
Lol.

Can someone give me an example of a causless beginning? Eternality seems to be the pet peeve of anyone wishing to disprove the Genesis account of the absolute beginning to reality.

Sorry there is way too much fodder to go through from the former two posts. Causless beginnings, and a compelte misunderstanding of Cogito Ergo Sum. The worst of all is the dogmatic materialism displayed by saying that is something is NOT comprised of matter, it is nothing ie. non-existant.

Well anyway, I find solice in being able to reconsile my metaphysical belief to modern day knowledge. Although this does not mean I can reconsile the abundant claims made in Religious texts, but I don't pretend to understand them. I focus on the base of it all; the creator, the intelligence, the beginning and inevidable end.

I'll finish with a quesion;

Why is there something, rather than nothing? You can invoke the Anthropic principle if you like, but personaly I believe it is another objectivist copout. Feel free to answer, or don't. I'm not expecting to be enlightened.
 
bellenuit said:
It is a methodology for doing things and knowing things. The complete opposite of the methodology used by religion.

Do not confuse bad science, which there is some of, with science as it is meant to be.
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This is key^^ You're actually doing the same. Not that I'm defending religion, but it's very easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Spirituality, properly applied is also a process, a practice, involves no beliefs, no statues, no dogma, no holy books, no robes and no sermons. In fact beliefs are the biggest obstacle to revealing the one Truth. They all have to go. Every single belief has to be let go of.

"If you see Buddha on the path, kill him". Don't hold up buddha or jesus or mohammed as idols; they are people just like you and me. Forget all that.

Religion 99.99% misapplication and perversion. You have to do a lot of research to discover what it's really about. And then practice.
 
I found it hard to believe how much of taxpayers money is being spent by this inept Green/Labor socialist left government in promoting Islam in this country,

Why ain't they promoting intergration in lieu of division?

Next thing we will hear the government is building mosques for these people.

We cannot and should not allow this happen. Maybe Gillard is deperate for the Islamic vote and don't forget at least 90% of the illegal refugees (boat people) are Moslam.

is this for real?


Before you "copy-paste" or click on the website below, read the story first, then watch it.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/10406568/spreading-the-word

On Wednesday 5th of October, on Channel 7, in the "TodayTonight" program, it was revealed how some councils from Melbourne, like Darebin Council in Melbourne's North (and soon other councils will follow suit) is doing the hiring, using a grant from the Federal Attorney General Robert McClelland's Counter Violent Extremism Fund.

So far the Gillard government spent more than 9.7 million dollars to promote the Islam religion in Australia, also"developing and implementing activities that assist the Islamic Society of Victoria to dispel mythsand misconceptions about Islam and Muslims"
The government also is funding overseas religious workers paying them a salary of $66,000 dollars per year to spread Islam in this country. My greatest concern is that the government wants the Islamisation of Australia.
The following Muslim communities were helped with huge amounts of taxpayers' money:
- Auburn Community Development Network
- Australian Somali Community Association Inc. (ASCA).
- Bali Peace Park Association
- Burwood Council
- Centre for Multicultural Youth
- City of Darebin
- Federation of Ethnic Communities
- Council of Australia (FECCA)
- Football United - Fairfield
- Footscray Football Club
- Forum on Australia's Islamic Relations
- Horn of Africa Development Agency (HARDA)
- InterAction Multifaith Youth Network
- Islamic Council of Queensland
- Islamic Council of Victoria
- La Trobe University
- Lebanese Muslim Association
- North Melbourne Football Club
- Pace e Bene Australia
- University of Melbourne
- Victorian Arabic Social Services
- The Youth Centre
- Youth Development Australia
$45,000 pool curtain installed by the Monash Council to shield Muslim women from public view while they swim.
NO program like this, for any other religious group has ever been run before, and NO other religion has ever received a penny from the government, so the question that remain unanswered is: "why now", and "why only to Muslims"?????
THIS IS DISCRIMINATION ALL OVER THE COUNTRY !!!
This means the rest of us, who are not Muslims, are going to be "second class citizens" of Australia.
If you are a Muslim in this country ONLY you will benefit, To see the whole story, please click on the link or "copy-paste" the website below:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/10406568/spreading-the-word
I hope Channel 7 will not take this story off air...it is pretty scary to watch, believe me !!!
WHAT AN INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENT, WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS !!!
RAISE YOUR VOICE AGAINST THIS MINDLESS SPENDING, ...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE !!!
AND DON'T FORGET TO PASS IT ON – AND THANK YOU !!!

Bronwen Tudor

bronwen@multimediadesign.com.au

Ph: 07 3822 2511

Mob: 0404 294 792












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http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/10406568/spreading-the-word
 
Religion is crazy, I'm an Atheist and fully agree with what this bloke said in Indonesia. Thankfully here in Australia you won't be arrested for expressing an opinion.
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AN Indonesian civil servant who declared himself an atheist on Facebook was arrested and is now facing jail for blasphemy after being attacked by an angry mob, police said today.

"The man told police investigators that if God really exists and has absolute power, why didn't he prevent bad things from happening in this world."

Link: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/atheist-faces-jail-after-facebook-remark/story-e6freuyi-1226249817335
---
 
bellenuit said:
Muslims Declare Jihad on Dogs in Europe

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/644807-muslims-declare-jihad-on-dogs-in-europe
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I seem to recall reading about a plan to "safeguard" against suicide bombers by tethering dogs at the entrance to potential targets. If dogs are so unclean, being splattered with a mutt's bits on their way to those personal virgins would be a sure deterrent and send the terrorist quickly in the other direction. Which is where they belong anyway
 
Pork chop on the door lock should work as well???
 

many scientists and theoretical physicists these days acknowledge a higher force/energy/power/being, although they cant explain it nor do they try to.

religion is a plague on society, causes more harm than good, and is only limited by ones imagination. but everyone has to believe in something, i know i do, and by no means do i think im right. a belief is simply that, until proven without any uncertainty to be fact.

it would seem that most religions were created a long time ago when there wasnt the science to disprove them. hopefully jesus comes back soon so we can run some tests.

in saying that scientology was established in 1953, and they have managed quite the following

my hat goes off to those that selflessly help others in need through religious channels. it should simply be about being a good person.
 
When you watch any religious ceremony some one one day must have sat down and worked out what to do , what capes, format, movements,accessories were needed, where to place the candles, do we need holy water yes or no all thought out and passed down through time.
Who told the stone mason what dimensions a statue has to be and were did this info come from .
Unless some one has a copy of the manual or CD it is all man made.
And religion has to be taught it is not some thing you can learn by trial and error.
Is is based on we have parents to look up to so therefore we carry it on further to some higher thingo.
 
Known as the smartest man in America (with an off-the-chart IQ score), Michael Langan has an interesting website.

http://www.ctmu.org/

Or if you want something more simple, just let go of all thought, all concepts, philosophies, ideas, beliefs. If you let go of all of them, all the way down to the belief that you are a person with a body and a mind, sitting at your PC, then you get a glimpse of it.
 
Julia said:
Do you feel like telling us about what you believe in, young-gun?
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if you feel like listening....?

what we're apart of is bigger and more unbelievably magnificent than anyone could ever imagine or comprehend(naturally myself included). i believe that everyone has a soul, that can be negatively or positively influenced. i am a huge believer in positive thinking and the affects that it has on people and your surroundings, not to mention your path in life, and believe this is tied into a universal energy that everyone is tapped in to. the label attached to such a higher 'energy' or 'being' isnt important. but i think recognising that there is something so much bigger than us at work is important.

i have noticed many times throughout my short life so far that when things are going bad for me it is purely due to my attitude and my process and nature of thoughts at that particular point in time. ruts are easily filled in with a simple step back, and a change in actions and thought.

by being happy and positive you are able to change your environment. dr masaru emoto has executed experiments on water after being subjected to different stimuli.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWAuc9GIvFo
http://www.masaru-emoto.net/english/ephoto.html

his findings are truly amazing.

now whether or not everything is suddenly made clear upon death is up for debate, i personally dont believe in an after life, instead would probably lean more towards reincarnation. naturally the mind does not travel into new vessels, it is simply the soul or an energy so to speak.

i think that it is criminal to scare people into believing what you believe with talks of the devil and hell etc etc. if there were a heaven i think that being a honest, decent person should see you through the gates, and should the almighty 'god' turn you away after such a life then he can cram it. i had a preacher tell me that my very honest, loving, caring grandfather who passed away from cancer wasn't going to heaven as he wasnt catholic. the fact that people can honestly think like this, and then have the nerve to say it to someone absolutely infuriates me.

9/11 was a religous war. the americans represent everything that the koran and muslims stand so strongly to eradicate. things of this nature are primitive and need to be STOPPED. please no one reply with conspiracy theories.

if you removed religion, and had a generic "be a good person" moto, the world would be a vastly better place. it doesnt bother me what people believe(except when such beliefs lead to death, pain and suffering, or when these beliefs are forced upon others). i think having your own beliefs and opinions is very important, as it stimulates debate and thought and new views. i personally enjoy hearing peoples views that are established outside the box that is religion. i think the most pure religion of all is buddhism.

anyway im sure alot of people will disagree, and i look forward to it

PS my fiance just walked through the door after being to her very first psychic party. ill save it for a different discussion but her experience is very interesting!
 
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