Religion IS crazy!

[Value Collector]

Religion has always been the messenger, how else are people going to hear about God, if not for religion.
The atheists don't want you to think of either.
.

Which religion is the true Messenger though, How can we tell?

I think most people that are at the point where they are willing to call them selves atheists, have done a lot more thinking on the subject than the average guy, and atheists generally encourage discussion and thinking on the subject.

Then again, they are the beginning of a Communist society, so what do you expect, no religion allowed, only their religion.

Firstly do you know what communism is? Atheism is not communism, Atheism is one opinion on one topic thats it, If your not convinced a god exists, your atheist, not believeing in a god doesn't mean you're communist, it takes a whole set of other beliefs to get to communism, and you don't have to be atheist to be a communist, they are separate things.

Atheists are some of the biggest defenders of religious freedom there are, I will defend your right to have a religion, to build churches, to have as many meetings as you want.

The only time we will fight, is if you try to get your religion special privileges over others or you try to bring in legislation based on your religion, But that doesn't mean I am taking away your religious freedom, I am defending every one elses right to their religion and be free from yours.

If your beating a man with a stick, and I stop you beating him, That doesn't mean I am attacking your right to have a stick, you just have to keep your stick to your self.

I don't believe a society can make up their own rules.

Why not? we have been doing a pretty good job so far. If we took our rules from the bible, you would be able to kill gays, stone people that work on the Sabbath, kill nonbelievers etc.

I think we have done a pretty good job at putting secular based rules for our society, It's a bit weird that you think people can't make up rules, when the churches are just people also.

In fact if you don't believe we should stone gays and nonbelievers your actually going against the bible and what jesus said, because the bible clearly commands those things, and Jesus said you had to follow the commandments, not just the ten commandments, but all of them, and during the sermon on the mount he said none of the rules would change until he returned.

Religion has always been about the common good for all in society,

Except if you disagree with them, then they generally killed you.

 

[bunyip]

Tink

What would you do if your son or daughter had a drinking problem?

This is not a trick question - I really would appreciate an answer if you have time to give me one.
Thanks

 

[Julia]

Gratitude, something people are forgetting.

Agree that gratitude is important. It is not necessary to be religious to experience gratitude.

Religion has always been the messenger, how else are people going to hear about God, if not for religion.

Can't you see how illogical that statement is? If someone has thought clearly and concluded that they do not believe there is a god, or simply concluded that they don't know, and will therefore just get about their business, they're not interested in your 'messenger'. Nothing worse than people who proselytize.

Then again, they are the beginning of a Communist society, so what do you expect, no religion allowed, only their religion.

Communism is a political ideology. It is not a religion. There is no obligatory connection between atheism and communism as VC has pointed out.

I agree with the Church also, which I know some in here don't, but I don't believe a society can make up their own rules. I am glad that the Church is there standing up for the ones that can't speak.

Oh my goodness! the irony! Standing up for the ones they raped and abused for decades and then covered it up!

Religion has always been about the common good for all in society, from adults to children,

To actually say that religion has always been for the common good in society is blatantly and obviously untrue. Just think of a few examples like the Twin Towers, the Israel/Palestine situation and hundreds of suicide bombers throughout the world.

 

[noco]

Which religion is the true Messenger though, How can we tell?

I think most people that are at the point where they are willing to call them selves atheists, have done a lot more thinking on the subject than the average guy, and atheists generally encourage discussion and thinking on the subject.



Firstly do you know what communism is? Atheism is not communism, Atheism is one opinion on one topic thats it, If your not convinced a god exists, your atheist, not believeing in a god doesn't mean you're communist, it takes a whole set of other beliefs to get to communism, and you don't have to be atheist to be a communist, they are separate things.

Atheists are some of the biggest defenders of religious freedom there are, I will defend your right to have a religion, to build churches, to have as many meetings as you want.

The only time we will fight, is if you try to get your religion special privileges over others or you try to bring in legislation based on your religion, But that doesn't mean I am taking away your religious freedom, I am defending every one elses right to their religion and be free from yours.

If your beating a man with a stick, and I stop you beating him, That doesn't mean I am attacking your right to have a stick, you just have to keep your stick to your self.



Why not? we have been doing a pretty good job so far. If we took our rules from the bible, you would be able to kill gays, stone people that work on the Sabbath, kill nonbelievers etc.

I think we have done a pretty good job at putting secular based rules for our society, It's a bit weird that you think people can't make up rules, when the churches are just people also.

In fact if you don't believe we should stone gays and nonbelievers your actually going against the bible and what jesus said, because the bible clearly commands those things, and Jesus said you had to follow the commandments, not just the ten commandments, but all of them, and during the sermon on the mount he said none of the rules would change until he returned.




Except if you disagree with them, then they generally killed you.

Congratulations VC.....I fully agree with all you have stated......I have no objection to religion so long as they don't ram it down my throat with a stick.

To brain wash Muslim kids 5 times a day with the Koran into believing that if you are a Christian or an infidel you should be eliminated is very evil in my mind.....they do it by spreading fear.

IMHO Islamic religion is being used as a political front for world domination.

 

[cynic]

...Given that there are some that believe themselves sufficiently omniscient to know better than all those theistic folk how one may or may not be permitted to live and believe, perhaps one of the anti-theists amongst us could shed light on their proposed alternative. Should any choose to do so, please ensure that the concerns raised in my earlier post are adequately addressed.

Bump.

Would any of the self-proclaimed suiperior minds on this thread care to take me up on my invitation for them to explain how their philosophy on existence actually works?

 

[noco]

Bump.

Would any of the self-proclaimed suiperior minds on this thread care to take me up on my invitation for them to explain how their philosophy on existence actually works?

IMHO many religions are used as a curtain to conceal their sins........there are many religious people who believe they can commit a sin and be forgiven.......there are many religious people who believe they are above all others....there are many religious people, who believe because they are religious, they can do no wrong in the eyes of others....please don't get me wrong....there are are some good things that come out of certain religions.

I believe a majority of religious people are pure hypocrites and do not follow their teachings in the manner in which they were taught...it is one of the reasons why, I, as an original Christian decided to become Agnostic......I could not tolerate mixing with so many hypocrites.

I perceive to look at this way.......we have laws of the land to abide by......we know these laws and if we break those laws we have have to suffer the consequences either from our pockets of by detention......many of those laws are also in the bible which at times can be misinterpreted or misused by unscrupulous people.....IMHO the bible is made up of 1/3 fable. 1/3 fiction and 1/3 truth.......because the testaments have been rewritten so many times, they are now distant from the original.

Then there are the morale standards which in most cases are handed down from one's parents and as to what you believe is right from wrong and lets not kid ourselves, we all know when we are doing the wrong thing by ourselves and others.

 

[cynic]

I'm never quite sure whether I envy or admire people that are able to believe in accidental causation coupled with the perception that our consciousness/life only spans one conception and death and is thereafter extinguished for all eternity.

I could think of no philosophy/belief more liberating and would happily have embraced it if it were not for my deep convictions to the contrary.

No deed could truly be deemed good or evil because everything came about accidentally and hence is of no importance.
Every able bodied person could happily stop reproducing and euthenase themselves to spare future generations from life's rollercoaster ride of pleasure and suffering.

Pure bliss.

Think about it!

Are we sure that such an idealistic notion of existence being purely accidental is a truly logical, reasonable and safe philosophy to pursue!

...Given that there are some that believe themselves sufficiently omniscient to know better than all those theistic folk how one may or may not be permitted to live and believe, perhaps one of the anti-theists amongst us could shed light on their proposed alternative. Should any choose to do so, please ensure that the concerns raised in my earlier post are adequately addressed.

IMHO many religions are used as a curtain to conceal their sins........there are many religious people who believe they can commit a sin and be forgiven.......there are many religious people who believe they are above all others....there are many religious people, who believe because they are religious, they can do no wrong in the eyes of others....please don't get me wrong....there are are some good things that come out of certain religions.

I believe a majority of religious people are pure hypocrites and do not follow their teachings in the manner in which they were taught...it is one of the reasons why, I, as an original Christian decided to become Agnostic......I could not tolerate mixing with so many hypocrites.

I perceive to look at this way.......we have laws of the land to abide by......we know these laws and if we break those laws we have have to suffer the consequences either from our pockets of by detention......many of those laws are also in the bible which at times can be misinterpreted or misused by unscrupulous people.....IMHO the bible is made up of 1/3 fable. 1/3 fiction and 1/3 truth.......because the testaments have been rewritten so many times, they are now distant from the original.

Then there are the morale standards which in most cases are handed down from one's parents and as to what you believe is right from wrong and lets not kid ourselves, we all know when we are doing the wrong thing by ourselves and others.

Thanks for sharing that noco. Unfortunately, due to my bumped post's omission of a quoted excerpt from one of my earlier posts, you may have overlooked the concerns explicitly raised that I was seeking to have addressed.

 

[lindsayf]

another bizarre, immoral and disturbing artifact of a bronze age religion.

http://www.newsquare.com/new-york-n...o-new-cases-of-neonatal-herpes-following-mbp/

 

[cynic]

...Sadder yet is the sickening glee certain individuals take when capitalising on such abhorrent events in the pursuance and promotion of their personal agenda/s.

Does this sentiment resonate with anyone?

Must I repeat myself?!

 

[Tink]

Tink

What would you do if your son or daughter had a drinking problem?

This is not a trick question - I really would appreciate an answer if you have time to give me one.
Thanks

Hi Bunyip,

I am not sure why you are asking me that, but I will answer.

What would any parent do? Find out why.

 

[Value Collector]

Thanks for sharing that noco. Unfortunately, due to my bumped post's omission of a quoted excerpt from one of my earlier posts, you may have overlooked the concerns explicitly raised that I was seeking to have addressed.

What exactly are the concerns your raising?

Due to your confusing writting style I am not sure if you actually asked a question. Are you talking about the bit where you said everybody could euthanise themselves?

 

[Value Collector]

another bizarre, immoral and disturbing artifact of a bronze age religion.

http://www.newsquare.com/new-york-n...o-new-cases-of-neonatal-herpes-following-mbp/

Even if the babies hadn't have caught herpies, the thought that some religious parents still let religious leaders suck the tip of their babies penis shocks me.

 

[cynic]

I'm never quite sure whether I envy or admire people that are able to believe in accidental causation coupled with the perception that our consciousness/life only spans one conception and death and is thereafter extinguished for all eternity.
I could think of no philosophy/belief more liberating and would happily have embraced it if it were not for my deep convictions to the contrary.

No deed could truly be deemed good or evil because everything came about accidentally and hence is of no importance.
Every able bodied person could happily stop reproducing and euthenase themselves to spare future generations from life's rollercoaster ride of pleasure and suffering. Pure bliss.

Think about it!

Are we sure that such an idealistic notion of existence being purely accidental is a truly logical, reasonable and safe philosophy to pursue!

I'd love it to be true!

Truly I would!

However, it sounds too fantastic for me to believe that my lives and deaths could be so easy!

P.S. Also, I was delivered a sign via a winged messenger within seconds of asking a higher being for guidance on the possibility of my permanent exit from this existence!

I am still undecided whether to be thankful or resentful. I got the answer that I had to have! It just wasn't the answer that I'd have preferred. Non existence would be so much easier!!

Tankyou VC. I'll accept that as your admission to misconstruence of my use of the word "beneficial".

Given that there are some that believe themselves sufficiently omniscient to know better than all those theistic folk how one may or may not be permitted to live and believe, perhaps one of the anti-theists amongst us could shed light on their proposed alternative. Should any choose to do so, please ensure that the concerns raised in my earlier post are adequately addressed.

Bump.

Would any of the self-proclaimed suiperior minds on this thread care to take me up on my invitation for them to explain how their philosophy on existence actually works?

What exactly are the concerns your raising?
...

I've bolded the relevant sections of my posts in order to reduce the possibility of any innocent misunderstandings and/or intentional misconstruence.

 

[Value Collector]

I've bolded the relevant sections of my posts in order to reduce the possibility of any innocent misunderstandings and/or intentional misconstruence.

I don't agree with the premise you are making in your statements,

So when you say this,

Are we sure that such an idealistic notion of existence being purely accidental is a truly logical, reasonable and safe philosophy to pursue!

I can't really answer it, because it's a question that has already been loaded with a bunch of statements I don't think are correct.

You are actually committing two logical fallacies, 1, begging the question 2, asking a loaded question.

 

[cynic]

I don't agree with the premise you are making in your statements,

So when you say this,



I can't really answer it, because it's a question that has already been loaded with a bunch of statements I don't think are correct.

You are actually committing two logical fallacies, 1, begging the question 2, asking a loaded question.

Whether loaded or not, the question is logical and remains valid!

Surely those presuming the right to challenge and condemn the rationale behind others' belief systems, shouldn't have any objection to being called upon to justify their own!

 

[Value Collector]

Whether loaded or not, the question is logical and remains valid!

Surely those presuming the right to challenge and condemn the rationale behind others' belief systems, shouldn't have any objection to being called upon to justify their own!

I don't believe the things you presumed are correct, hence your logic is false, so the question is invalid.

I have no problem justifying my logic, but the presumptions you built into the question are not my logic.

 

[cynic]

Whether loaded or not, the question is logical and remains valid!

Surely those presuming the right to challenge and condemn the rationale behind others' belief systems, shouldn't have any objection to being called upon to justify their own!

I don't believe the things you presumed are correct, hence your logic is false, so the question is invalid.

I have no problem justifying my logic, but the presumptions you built into the question are not my logic.

Are you sure about that? Weren't you one of the posters banging on about the accidental causation of our existence?!!

 

[Value Collector]

Are you sure about that? Weren't you one of the posters banging on about the accidental causation of our existence?!!

No, I said I don't know what caused the universe to exist, I don't even know if its possible for the universe to not exist or if there was a time that nothing existed.

I also don't think humans existence is "accidental" we are the product of natural selection, which is not a random process, individual genetic mutations may be random, but which mutations survive is not random.

You also said,

No deed could truly be deemed good or evil because everything came about accidentally and hence is of no importance.
.

As I have already said, we didn't come about accidentally, we came about because of natural selection, and good and evil are just words we use to describe actions that we think are positive ( good ) or extremely negative ( evil ), these are real things because they are assessments of actions that affect the welfare of ourselves and others. And since we care about our welfare and the welfare of others we care about good and evil, and as we learn more, we get a better understanding of good and evil.

Why do we care about the welfare of others? You may ask, simply because we have evolved from a social species, and our ancestors through natural selection developed traits of caring for the group, which increased the survival rate of themselves and their cousins carrying the same genes, while the anti social individuals outside these caring groups would have died out.

Every able bodied person could happily stop reproducing and euthenase themselves to spare future generations from life's rollercoaster ride of pleasure and suffering

Could they happily stop reproducing? I don't think so, the urge to reproduce is very strong and it certainly makes people happy to reproduce, why does the urge to reproduce exist? Simply because we are the product of ancestors who had an urge to reproduce, the individuals that didnt have the urge died out and didnt become ancestors.

Also, we have the urge to live, we are not all naturally suicidal, so i cant see the population "happily" killing them selves.

Are we sure that such an idealistic notion of existence being purely accidental is a truly logical, reasonable and safe philosophy to pursue!

So for the reasons I gave above, i dont think this is a valid question.

 

[cynic]

No, I said I don't know what caused the universe to exist, I don't even know if its possible for the universe to not exist or if there was a time that nothing existed.

I also don't think humans existence is "accidental" we are the product of natural selection, which is not a random process, individual genetic mutations may be random, but which mutations survive is not random.

You also said,



As I have already said, we didn't come about accidentally, we came about because of natural selection, and good and evil are just words we use to describe actions that we think are positive ( good ) or extremely negative ( evil ), these are real things because they are assessments of actions that affect the welfare of ourselves and others. And since we care about our welfare and the welfare of others we care about good and evil, and as we learn more, we get a better understanding of good and evil.

Why do we care about the welfare of others? You may ask, simply because we have evolved from a social species, and our ancestors through natural selection developed traits of caring for the group, which increased the survival rate of themselves and their cousins carrying the same genes, while the anti social individuals outside these caring groups would have died out.



Could they happily stop reproducing? I don't think so, the urge to reproduce is very strong and it certainly makes people happy to reproduce, why does the urge to reproduce exist? Simply because we are the product of ancestors who had an urge to reproduce, the individuals that didnt have the urge died out and didnt become ancestors.

Also, we have the urge to live, we are not all naturally suicidal, so i cant see the population "happily" killing them selves.



So for the reasons I gave above, i dont think this is a valid question.

I've taken the liberty of bolding two statements within your reply. Based upon the logic of those statements you are indeed claiming accidental origin!

Now would you like to provide a valid logical response to the concerns I raised?

 

[Tink]

Julia, I already said some wouldn't agree with the Church, but I do.
I am glad they are there standing up for the ones that can't speak, and a voice for values.
Someone already posted the link.
http://www.acl.org.au/our-board/
Most Australians, and certainly many Christians, have simply had enough of the increasingly rapid erosion of traditional family values and ethics in Australia.
We believe that our success as a nation and a community to date is largely due to our strong Christian heritage.

I am not pushing religion on people, the only reason I mentioned religion being a messenger was because it was brought up about being taught in schools, private schools.
The only way you can stop people learning is banning it, and that's where my post went....

Its a pity that VC doesn't extend his gratitude on what built this country, with our Christian Values, how quickly we forget. The rich depth of religion speaks volumes, from music to art to architecture, the list goes on, how much it has contributed in society.

Just beautiful what man can do... enjoy if you wish.
http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Anyway, I have said my bit in here....