Religion IS crazy!

[cynic]

It doesn't actually explain anything, and the creator may not exist.

Do you care if the things you believe are true?

Do you actually care about the truth?

Given that any creation is by definition the result of a creator, then the existence of creation implies the presence of a creator. If you don't believe me look it up in an English dictionary!

 

[noco]

Do you actually care about the truth?

Given that any creation is by definition the result of a creator, then the existence of creation implies the presence of a creator. If you don't believe me look it up in an English dictionary!

We may never know the truth and this is what has converted me from a Christian to an Agnostic.

I cannot believe in something that other people try to ram down my throat that they maintain is true without ever being able to prove it for myself.

 

[Value Collector]

Does that mean God is getting smaller?

His resume' has gotten smaller

He used to take credit for lightning, earth quakes, famines, plagues, designing each complex detail in biology etc.

Now he just takes credit for imputing some laws of physics and pressing go, and occasionally appearing on cheese toast.

 

[Value Collector]

Do you actually care about the truth?

Given that any creation is by definition the result of a creator, then the existence of creation implies the presence of a creator. If you don't believe me look it up in an English dictionary!

Yep, i want to believe as may true things and as few false things as possible.

Hence i wouldn't put the creation label on the universe.

Just because you guys call something a creation, doesn't mean it actually is one.

 

[cynic]

We may never know the truth and this is what has converted me from a Christian to an Agnostic.

I cannot believe in something that other people try to ram down my throat that they maintain is true without ever being able to prove it for myself.

Yes! This is one of the unfortunate consequences of fanaticism of any persuasion.

It can be very annoying being subjected to uncompromising fanatical opinions. The dearth of wisdom evident in the behaviour of the zeaolot usually leads one to doubt the philosophical wisdom.

 

[cynic]

...Hence i wouldn't put the creation label on the universe.

Nor should you have to! (Thanks for clarifying your stance!)

However, I am sure you would agree that the question of whether the universe was created by some "thing" (whether that "thing" happens to be a sentient being or simply an unconscious physical process) remains unanswered within the realms of contemporary human science.

 

[luutzu]

That’s long been my philosophy as well......rather than getting too caught up in all the religious dogma and god worship routine, focus instead on being a good and decent person, one of honesty and integrity who tries to lead a good life and help other people.

If you can be such a person throughout your life, then I have no doubt that your god (if it exists) will view you favorably on judgment day. (if there is in fact a judgment day)

And if there’s no god and no judgment day, then leading a life as described above will give you the best chance of being happy and contented and respected. And we can’t really ask much more of life that that.

Yes, I also think that if God exists he'd preferred a person who had been busy doing his good work to one who's prompt to Church but ignore his core teachings. Much like NRMA in that ad

I also find it very true that kindness is its own reward, but also being good and kind to people is always beneficial to yourself as well. That argument is the only thing that stick to me reading Mencius a while ago.

Mencius, when asked if it is better to be good or cruel in a world full of cruelty replied that it is always beneficial to your own interests to be good because to be mean and cruel you will be abandoned by those who are good and wise and attract to your company those who are either foolish or self interested. Those who surrounds himself with the fools and the scoundrels will not end well.

But what about being good and generous but get used and abused? You will only be taken advantage of once, after which the bad company and yourself will separate, you will learn a lesson and know your true friends and perhaps attract wise and noble company. To remove yourself from those who use people and attract good and wise company will always be beneficial.

I find it very hard to help people who I think are dishonest or just no good, even if they're OK towards me or don't do anything to me. Good or bad, I think we're all like that.

 

[luutzu]

There you go with religion again, I told you I don't believe in it. Show me the mechanism by which the Universe was created out of nothing instead of blathering away about Bibles, fairies and Zeuses.

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started ””Wait...
The Earth began to cool;
The autotrophs began to drool;
Neanderthals developed tools;
We built a wall (we built the pyramids).
Math, science, history, unraveling the mystery,
That all started with a Big Bang!
Bᴀɴɢ!
"Since the dawn of man" is really not that long,
As every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to sing this song.
A fraction of a second and the elements were made.
The bipeds stood up straight,
The dinosaurs all met their fate,
They tried to leave, but they were late
And they all died. (They froze their asses off.)
The oceans and Pangea,
See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya,
Set in motion by the same Big Bang!
It all started with the Big Bang!
It's expanding ever outward, but one day,
It will pause and start to go the other way,
Collapsing ever inward, we won't be here, it won't be heard.
Our best and brightest figure that it'll make an even bigger bang!
Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating how we're here, they're catching deer. (We're catching viruses.)
Religion and astronomy, Descartes and Deuteronomy,
It all started with the Big Bang!
Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology,
It all started with the Big Bang!
It all started with the Big Bᴀɴɢ!

 

[Value Collector]

However, I am sure you would agree that the question of whether the universe was created by some "thing" (whether that "thing" happens to be a sentient being or simply an unconscious physical process) remains unanswered within the realms of contemporary human science.

Yes, so we should refrain from saying it was created by a sentient being, atleast until we can prove it, its best to say "i dont know" when you actually don't know.

 

[luutzu]

I don't think you can learn good morals from the religious texts, you have to have good morals to start with, otherwise you can't distinguish which verses to listen to and which to ignore.

I mean you say take the good lessons, but only someone with pre existing good morals can tell those, and the books tend to muddy the waters, and make otherwise moral people make some crappy decisions, eg. discriminate against gays and women etc.

Yea that's a good point. Don't know how to answer that one.

Probably could go back to the question of whether Man was born good or evil. I think one of Mencius student asked if the Sages were born good or evil, that since they spend their lives searching for enlightenment and practise hard to be good, they must therefore born evil and so must necessarily seek and practise goodness.

In reply Mencius said the sages, and people, are born good and it is because of this innate goodness that drive them to seek and learn and practise kindness and justice.

As subtitle to one of my textbook points out - its a combination of the biological, social and psychological influences.
In other words, I don know...

 

[cynic]

Yes, so we should refrain from saying it was created by a sentient being, atleast until we can prove it, its best to say "i dont know" when you actually don't know.

You are perfectly welcome to state the limits of your knowledge.

Please do me the courtesy of not presuming to "not know" on my behalf. I am perfectly capable of drawing from my own life experience in the formulation of my own opinions and conclusions about what I may or may not know.

I have observed scientific evidence that is supportive of the concept of our species, planet and solar system being a direct product of a very large and intelligent life form.

 

[Value Collector]

I have observed scientific evidence that is supportive of the concept of our species, planet and solar system being a direct product of a very large and intelligent life form.

Please share, i would love to hear you explain some details of this scientific evidence.

 

[Value Collector]

You are perfectly welcome to state the limits of your knowledge.

And your free to over state yours I guess.

 

[cynic]

Please share, i would love to hear you explain some details of this scientific evidence.

I will be more than happy to put the time into brushing the dust off my physics,chemistry and biology textbooks and websearching (so that I can provide links to identical information) if you're genuinely interested, but

And your free to over state yours I guess.

if that's your attitude then it's quite evident that I'd be wasting time that could be better spent elsewhere. I'd rather be spending my time increasing my knowledge than wasting it on a futile attempt to share it with an unwilling subject!

 

[SirRumpole]

Do you care if the things you believe are true?

Do you ?

You have already said we don't know how the Universe began, we may never know, so why rule out a possibility just because it doesn't agree with your pre conceived ideology ?

 

[Tink]

Ahhh cynic, always refreshing seeing your posts, well said

 

[Value Collector]

Do you ?

You have already said we don't know how the Universe began, we may never know, so why rule out a possibility just because it doesn't agree with your pre conceived ideology ?

As I said repeatedly, I haven't ruled out the possibility. However I am not going to believe that something is true until we can prove it.

you are saying that a god exists, I am just saying I don't believe one does. I am not saying I know that one doesn't.

That's why I am using the examples of fairies and bigfoot. I don't believe bigfoot exists, But I haven't ruled it out. It's possible an ape like creature exists in the wilds of America, But I don't believe it does, because there is no evidence suggesting it does.

I am not going to go around believing every conceivable thing just because its possible, and when it comes to a god, as I said we don't even know if its possible for a god to exist.

 

[Value Collector]

I will be more than happy to put the time into brushing the dust off my physics,chemistry and biology textbooks and websearching (so that I can provide links to identical information) if you're genuinely interested, but


!

As far as I am aware, nothing in those scientific fields has pointed to a god. But I would be happy to look at any evidence you can provide. Why not start with your best piece of evidence. I have been down this road with creationists before, and it doesn't normally take long before they need to commit logical fallacies to prove there god, So lets just start with your best piece of evidence, so I can get a feel for the kind of things you count as evidence.

 

[pavilion103]

Has anything in the scientific field pointed to the possibility of a self-existing universe?

 

[SirRumpole]

Why not start with your best piece of evidence.

What is your best piece of evidence that there is not ?

Creation from nothing would appear to violate the Law of Causality. Creation by an external entity obeys this law.

Are you going to invalidate your own scientific laws ?