Religion IS crazy!

[Value Collector]

Not quite what I am saying.

I am saying that the narrative provided to implement any moral system is based on symbolism, which is a human concept as distinguishable from underlying objective reality. Moral values such as we are all equal, treat others how you would wish them to treat you, economic growth at all costs, our duty is to the King / Queen, glory is in conquest (or any example you can think of) are all beliefs, and can be put in a variety or contexts and justified within many different narratives. Symbolism is everywhere that there are humans. Within overarching society it is always justified on a rational basis. And it is this disconnect that sows the seeds for its eventual demise. It can sit quietly under the surface for a long time (and the most successful societies in history thrive on this), but eventually when the narrative starts breaking down, it can be taken to extremes and becomes a mockery of its previous self. It will be replaced or refined and so we begin again. It is fairly cyclical over history, if you look for it.

My purpose here is not to judge, but to point out that it exists as a process. If you know something exists it is much easier to question it.

The problem is though, if you have tied your moral system to a religion and a book that people have been taught to believe is the word of a god, you will have trouble changing things when in later years you realise certain moral teachings are actually immoral.

Eg, people have used to bible to defend slavery, deny women's rights, inspire the killing of innocent people and currently its being used to argue against same sex marriage rights.

This is just silly, by linking a moral system to a holy book written by men 2000 years ago, you are locking in the morals of that time, and delaying progress.

If it is true that same sex marriage is not moral, then arguments against it should be able to stand on their own merits, if the only thing people have to say about is that their imaginary friend is against it, they should be expelled from the debate, You shouldn't be able to outlaw something unless a rational reasoned debate can prove the practice will cause Harm to others.

 

[cynic]

I think what is happening here is that people such as yourself, pav and cbc, think that when I stand up for my own religious rights, and the rights of others, that I am some how oppressing you, when this is not the case.

Do not presume to know what I or anyone else is thinking! If you truly believe what you've said here then you clearly haven't got even the foggiest notion of what I am thinking!

I fully support your rights to Have a religion, practice it in any non harmful way you want, build churches, have meetings, instruct your children, have faith schools, be free to not have others force their religion on you etc etc.

I also fully support the rights of people to be allowed to freely think for themselves, whilst respecting the right of others to enjoy the same freedom without judgment.

Actually, the contents of a number of your posts strongly suggest otherwise!

However, other people also have these rights to their own religions or even no religion, So when people suggest Christianity should be forced through public schools or public policy, they are encroaching on the religious rights of every other religion and the rights of non believers.

Again your criticism applies more to yourself than to those you've chosen to debate! (Try reading back through your posts on these religion threads.)

I think you will find the only time you get "Oppressed"(it's not really oppression) is when your actively saying things that would suggest in some way you want to take other peoples religious freedoms away, for example suggesting your religion should be taught to all children in schools, you should be able to see that that wouldn't be you expressing a religious right, it would be you oppressing every other religion and non religious group.

It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the word "oppressed". Since when does issuing a compliment to a friend in relation to their wedding entitle anyone to commence a relentless assault on one's freedom of belief?

P.S. I am not against freedom of choice. I am perfectly willing to respect the rights of others in the formulation of their own views on theism, provided they accord others the same respect. I am also just as happy for them to hold no views whatsoever. What I am opposed to is the arrogant presumption by some that their personal view entitles them to claim intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing to alien beliefs. I find such bigotry offensive!

 

[Value Collector]

Actually, the contents of a number of your posts strongly suggest otherwise!

Such as? Please link a post where I have tried to deny your religious rights.

Again your criticism applies more to yourself than to those you've chosen to debate! (Try reading back through your posts on these religion threads.)

Again, please provide a link to so where that I have denied some ones religious rights.

It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the word "oppressed". Since when does issuing a compliment to a friend in relation to their wedding entitle anyone to commence a relentless assault on one's freedom of belief?

I am not just using the word oppressed in relation to you, but also other forum members who have made suggestions Christianity is being attacked and they are being oppressed by suggestions that they can not teach their stuff in schools etc.

But in relation to your oppression at the hands of an atheist at a wedding, was it your friend who oppressed you?

What exactly did he say that made you feel oppressed?

P.S. I am not against freedom of choice. I am perfectly willing to respect the rights of others in the formulation of their own views on theism, provided they accord others the same respect. I am also just as happy for them to hold no views whatsoever. What I am opposed to is the arrogant presumption by some that their personal view entitles them to claim intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing to alien beliefs. I find such bigotry offensive!

Well, some of them may actually have superiority when it comes to intellectual, moral or factual debates. Are you sure your not just getting butt hurt because they are not feigning respect of your beliefs like society teaches us. If somebody openly spouts an immoral teaching, there is nothing wrong with some one openly disagreeing with them on a moral standing.

When it comes to claiming moral high ground though, I don't think its atheists that are the biggest offenders of making arrogant assumptions, the vast majority of atheists will just let you go about spouting whatever nonsense you want without saying a word in opposition, and they will tip toe around you being sure to never offend you.

I know religious people often expect to get extra respect when they tell people they are Christian, and a lot of people will give or at least feign extra respect. So because they are not used to being questioned it can be confronting when somebody openly states opposition to their beliefs they are spouting, I have had members of my family say they were offended and upset because I didn't take part in saying grace at a restaurant, they said I was disrespecting them by not bowing my head and closing my eyes, Me sitting quietly while they say grace is not disrespect though, even though they feel upset, they have no right to expect me to join a prayer.

 

[cynic]

Such as? Please link a post where I have tried to deny your religious rights.



Again, please provide a link to so where that I have denied some ones religious rights.

We've already played this game and you struck out three times!

Re-read your own posts!

I am not just using the word oppressed in relation to you, but also other forum members who have made suggestions Christianity is being attacked and they are being oppressed by suggestions that they can not teach their stuff in schools etc.

But in relation to your oppression at the hands of an atheist at a wedding, was it your friend who oppressed you?

What exactly did he say that made you feel oppressed?

What part of "relentless assault" do you not understand?
I believe the fact that neither he nor his friends allowed me the space to utter so much as a single word during their 30+ minutes tirade counts as oppression in anyone's language!

I note that you are again indulging your habit of asking questions to which you're unwilling to receive answers!

Well, some of them may actually have superiority when it comes to intellectual, moral or factual debates. Are you sure your not just getting butt hurt because they are not feigning respect of your beliefs like society teaches us. If somebody openly spouts an immoral teaching, there is nothing wrong with some one openly disagreeing with them on a moral standing.

When it comes to claiming moral high ground though, I don't think its atheists that are the biggest offenders of making arrogant assumptions, the vast majority of atheists will just let you go about spouting whatever nonsense you want without saying a word in opposition, and they will tip toe around you being sure to never offend you.

Again you've contradicted yourself by arrogantly presuming a rightful claim to the moral high ground!

 

[Value Collector]

We've already played this game and you struck out three times!

We have played this game, and gave three examples of things You thought meant I was claiming to know Isaacs newtons mind. I then said that these were not my claims, but were taken from things Isaac actually said.

So your accusation that I claimed to know Isaacs mind was false

Re-read your own posts!

I already know what I have said, Your the one claiming I have said things which deny people their religious rights, If you think that prove it and post a link.

What part of "relentless assault" do you not understand?
I believe the fact that neither he nor his friends allowed me the space to utter so much as a single word during their 30+ minutes tirade counts as oppression in anyone's language!

So you couldn't just walk away? Are you saying this guy was your friend?

I note that you are again indulging your habit of asking questions to which you're unwilling to receive answers!

So far you haven't been able to provide valid answers. Lets make this very simple.

You claimed that in my posts I have said things that suggest I want to deny peoples religious rights.

I dispute this claim.

Please provide one link to some thing I have said which would be taking peoples religious rights away. All you have to do is find one link, otherwise take back the accusation.

Again you've contradicted yourself by arrogantly presuming a rightful claim to the moral high ground!

I am not claiming I have the moral high ground in all cases, however you said

"What I am opposed to is the arrogant presumption by some that their personal view entitles them to claim intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing to alien beliefs. I find such bigotry offensive!"

All I am saying is that in some cases they will actually have personal views that do have intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing other beliefs.

If a religious person believes its ok to shoot someone of another faith, then I would say an atheist that believes that person is wrong, and everyone should have the right to practice religion without fear of violence is morally superior.

There will be certain topics where there is a right and a wrong belief, in the cases where you get butt hurt because the other person is disagreeing with you, if it turns out they do have the facts on their side then it is not bigotry and it shouldn't be offensive and you have no right to be butt hurt.

 

[cynic]

Those unwilling to receive answers shouldn't ask questions!

 

[cynic]

So now the self confessed atheist agnostic denies having posted anti theistic sentiments to the religion threads!

It seems the very evidence of one's own posts is invisible to the jaundiced eye!

Again I say, those unwilling to receive answers should not ask questions!

 

[Value Collector]

Those unwilling to receive answers shouldn't ask questions!

Or maybe Those unwilling to receive questions shouldn't say they have the answers

So now the self confessed atheist agnostic denies having posted anti theistic sentiments to the religion threads!

!

Me pointing out negative aspects of religion is not me denying your rights to practice it.

Just as me saying smoking is damaging to your health and the health of people around you is not me denying your right to smoke.

And, me asking you not to blow smoke in my or my children's face or stop you from getting laws forcing me to smoke brought in is not me denying your smoking rights.

 

[cynic]

We have played this game, and gave three examples of things You thought meant I was claiming to know Isaacs newtons mind. I then said that these were not my claims, but were taken from things Isaac actually said.

So your accusation that I claimed to know Isaacs mind was false

Oh no it wasn't!
As you are already only too well aware my claim was substantiated by three of your very own posts!

I already know what I have said, Your the one claiming I have said things which deny people their religious rights, If you think that prove it and post a link.

Are you sure about that?! You seem to be asking me for constant reminders of things that you've already posted!

So you couldn't just walk away? Are you saying this guy was your friend?

I don't discard decades long friendships over isolated incidents! Had the behaviour persisted beyond the day in question, my decision to persevere with such friendships may have been quite different.

So far you haven't been able to provide valid answers. Lets make this very simple.

You claimed that in my posts I have said things that suggest I want to deny peoples religious rights.

I dispute this claim

Please provide one link to some thing I have said which would be taking peoples religious rights away. All you have to do is find one link, otherwise take back the accusation..

We've played this game before!
Re read your posts!

I am not claiming I have the moral high ground in all cases, however you said

"What I am opposed to is the arrogant presumption by some that their personal view entitles them to claim intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing to alien beliefs. I find such bigotry offensive!"

All I am saying is that in some cases they will actually have personal views that do have intellectual, moral or factual superiority over those subscribing other beliefs.

Whether it be in all or any cases you are claiming the right to moral high ground!

 

[Value Collector]

Oh no it wasn't!
As you are already only too well aware my claim was substantiated by three of your very own posts!

you linked posts I made where I was stating things that newton himself had said in his writings. This is not me claiming to know his mind, no matter how you try and spin it.

Are you sure about that?! You seem to be asking me for constant reminders of things that you've already posted!

No, I am asking you to show evidence to back up an accusation you made. My position through this entire discussion has been that I support peoples religious rights. You have claimed I have tried to deny people religious rights, So I am asking you to show me a post where you thought I was denying people the right to religion.

As I have said, I believe your just butt hurt, and mistaking me standing up for my rights to not have your smoke blown in my face as some how denying your right to smoke which is just false.

I don't discard decades long friendships over isolated incidents! Had the behaviour persisted beyond the day in question, my decision to persevere with such friendships may have been quite different.

I am not saying end the friendship, I am saying couldn't you have just left the conversation?

Whether it be in all or any cases you are claiming the right to moral high ground!

well I am not really sure of the point your getting at.

But in discussions involving intellectual, moral or factual topics, there will be cases where one side is right and the other side is wrong, and it is not bigoted if a person says your wrong if in reality it can be proven you are wrong.

For example if there was a discussion on whether the world was 6000 years old or Billions of years old, Its not bigoted of someone who knows the facts to shoot down your arguments for a 6000 year old earth, offcourse you might get butt hurt, but that's not because you are being subjected to bigotry, its because your being subjected to opposition which is valid and fair.

 

[Julia]

All I did was compliment one on the minister and her sermon from when I'd attended his wedding. The next thing I knew I was receiving the most relentlessly oppressive lecture I'd received since childhood

What part of "relentless assault" do you not understand?
I believe the fact that neither he nor his friends allowed me the space to utter so much as a single word during their 30+ minutes tirade counts as oppression in anyone's language!

Um, cynic, going by your posts in this thread, I'm finding it a bit hard to imagine you passively standing by to meekly receive a '30+ minute tirade' about anything.

None of us have to listen to anything. Easy enough to politely say "let's agree to disagree on this".

If we're determined to find a reason to feel aggrieved/oppressed/insulted etc etc, it's usually easy enough.

Perhaps better overall to allow some things to just be what they are.

 

[cynic]

Um, cynic, going by your posts in this thread, I'm finding it a bit hard to imagine you passively standing by to meekly receive a '30+ minute tirade' about anything.

That's fine Julia, but I can guarantee you that is what happened nonetheless. In fact it was just shy of an hour, but I didn't want to be accused of exaggeration. I was waiting for the people present to allow me a space to actually speak! (As you've correctly noticed I'm not nearly so patient these days!)

None of us have to listen to anything. Easy enough to politely say "let's agree to disagree on this".

Again that's fine Julia.
However, let's not forget the number of non theists actively participating in this thread!
Please remember, that I reserve the right to protest against anyone presuming superior right to decide how I am permitted to think and what materials I am permitted to study!

If we're determined to find a reason to feel aggrieved/oppressed/insulted etc etc, it's usually easy enough.

So true!

Perhaps better overall to allow some things to just be what they are.

Things already are what they are.
The only say I have in the matter is in my personal choices. (i.e. to participate or not to participate).

 

[overhang]

Um, cynic, going by your posts in this thread, I'm finding it a bit hard to imagine you passively standing by to meekly receive a '30+ minute tirade' about anything.

None of us have to listen to anything. Easy enough to politely say "let's agree to disagree on this".

If we're determined to find a reason to feel aggrieved/oppressed/insulted etc etc, it's usually easy enough.

Perhaps better overall to allow some things to just be what they are.

It sounds like Cynic was pulled in front of a royal commission.

 

[McLovin]

I wonder what planet the Pope normally resides on.

Pope Francis has defended the Catholic Church's record on tackling the sexual abuse of children by priests, saying "no-one else has done more" to root out paedophilia.

"The Catholic Church is perhaps the only public institution to have acted with transparency and responsibility. No-one else has done more. Yet the Church is the only one to have been attacked," he said in an interview with Il Corriere della Sera daily published Wednesday.

 

[DB008]

Bring out the time machine boys, we're going back to time...


Brunei: Sultan to Impose Strict Sharia Law with Amputation for Theft and Stoning for Adultery

The Sultan of Brunei, Hassanal Bolkiah, is to implement a form of strict Islamic Sharia law across Brunei next month, rejecting foreign criticism of the move.

New legislation will phase in a version of Sharia law that will introduce penalties of amputation for theft, stoning for adultery and flogging for homosexual acts.

He said that the laws, to be implemented next month, were a "great achievement for the country, and not a backward or old-fashioned step."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brunei-sultan-impose-strict-sharia-law-amputation-theft-stoning-adultery-1439332

 

[Ron09]

Bring out the time machine boys, we're going back to time...


Brunei: Sultan to Impose Strict Sharia Law with Amputation for Theft and Stoning for Adultery

Greetings all . I have just joined this site , and read many good posts . Well done .

Should we single out Religion , when the " craziness " is so spread throughout our different cultures and
societies ?

When our financial systems , political systems , education systems , health and welfare systems , etc etc
right onwards to household rubbish disposal systems , could all use a bit of a revamp and updating .
The evening TV news and daily newspapers , show us examples from all over the world , of
happenings that seem to be very poorly thought out or planned . Is that what makes it seem crazy ?
Often times , that my daily plans and routine , due to unforeseen events , go right out of kilter .
It's darn hard to avoid sometimes , that things turn out poorly or unplanned .

Meanwhile , globally , things like stoning to death or chopping someone's hand off , is still happening .
Unfortuneatly , there are things equal and even worse that are daily events . Child slavery and
starvation , controllable diseases running rampant , massive oil spills and Nuclear Plants leaking ,
the Global Financial Crisis , species extinction rates , the War on Terror and next war and next war .

Now it's the Ukraine and Russia that are standing off . So many other "hotspots" are still heating
up more and more .

Global events . Me and my family live here too . Everything that I have worked my life to build ,
everything that I love and respect , ( an our two little dogs ) , are threatened by events on other
continents . This is our modern world , now in our 21st century and our Space Age . We are now
a part of the Global community .

Apparently there are about seven billion of us people now . The whole Human Race . Our families ,
all live here too . What affects my neighbors , on other continents , that I've never meet , affects
my family and me , an the little dogs . We are all in this together . Thats our modern world .

So how can we work together , and resolve some of the differences , and in-differences , to cool down
some of the hotspots , that can escalate to warfare , and our families may become "collateral damage"
to our 21st century weapons of mass destruction ? This threat has existed for generations now .
Was it 1963 when the Cuban Missile Crisis so threatened to escalate ? Look to all that time resources
and energy , that has been devoted , to building bigger and worser bombs , that can destroy all of
our families . Is this not the ultimate example , of " turned out poorly and unplanned ".

As our populations increase , and our natural resources get consumed , there has to be increasing
conflicts , over the remaining resources . It is like , with our eyes wide open , in broad daylight
we are forcing ourselves , into the war that no-one wants . The war that every-one will lose .

We Human Race bunch , have such wonderful opportunities today . Such incredible tools and technologies
available to us . Things that our ancestors , back a few generations , couldn't even have dreamed of .
We have it made . Wonderful foods music electricity airplanes and medical technologies . The Hubble
space telescope and submarines . Atomic microscopes and vast array telescopes , the internet and WWW .

So . . . . can we go back in time , look back into our history . Lets build that Time Machine , to go
back through the history of Human civilization , from the start of our Stone Age , to now our Space
Age and 21st century . This Time Machine is all in the history , and humanities , an astronomy and
biology and geology etc etc in our Public Library systems . The combined knowledge and understanding
of the whole Human Race , right back to our earliest ancestors who developed the first writing , and
first languages , on the different continents , that we have grown to our technologies of today .

Cool eh . The Time Machine is there . The travels of our ancestors , building our multi-cultural world
of today . The steps , from a few of us to now billions of us . May we find unity , as a species ,
the whole Human Race , and build modern community for our families and what care for , as our
ancestors have done , as pioneers now in that 21st century . All of us into our Space Age .

Lets work together , an clean up our home . I think that all of our Gods , all through our changing
history , would like that . May we start the walk back towards the garden . God is still beyond us
mere Humans to understand . God exists , cause from the ancient Aztec's an Australian Aborigines
to Moria's an the Mediteranian to the Vikings or Zulu's , to our modern societies of today , people
feel and sense a wonderful and powerful . . . .undefinable strength . Yet we feel "it" differently ,
and "it" grows and changes . May we grow forwards , towards peace and prosperity , as a global
bunch , look to what Unites us , rather than what can divide us .

This has become quite long , and I thank you for staying with me this far . Do you agree ?
If we can work towards agreeing as a species , the whole human race , we move away from the conflicts .

We are one species , on one planet , who share one history , and we share one future .

Towards unity and prosperity , for all of our families , sincerely Ron .

 

[dutchie]

Hi Ron09

Welcome to ASF. A long initial post - well done.

We can all dream for a better world but in my opinion it can't happen for two reasons:

1. Greed
2. Overpopulation

But the world needs more people like you (optimist) and less like me (pessimist).

Enjoy your journey at ASF.

dutchie

 

[Bill M]

This has become quite long , and I thank you for staying with me this far . Do you agree ?
If we can work towards agreeing as a species , the whole human race , we move away from the conflicts .

We are one species , on one planet , who share one history , and we share one future .

Towards unity and prosperity , for all of our families , sincerely Ron .

Hi Ron, welcome to the forum. Everybody wants what you want but they just want it their way. I will never accept chopping peoples hands off for theft or stoning a woman to death for adultery. So how do we deal with nut job religions that support this? These people are willing to go to war to keep these practices going in the name of religion. George Bush invaded Iraq and then said "God is with us". Best to stay away from the whole lot of them, all nuts jobs in my book.

 

[DocK]

Hi Ron09

Welcome to ASF. A long initial post - well done.

We can all dream for a better world but in my opinion it can't happen for two reasons:

1. Greed
2. Overpopulation

But the world needs more people like you (optimist) and less like me (pessimist).

Enjoy your journey at ASF.

dutchie

+1

I'd add 3. Ego/lust for power.

If only, Ron. If only... I have hopes that the Space Agers might get there one day, but doubt I'll be around to see it, and fear humans will need to find themselves on the brink of extinction before such drastic change could occur.

 

[bunyip]

Hello Ron

Every reasonable person wants what you want, but unfortunately not every person is reasonable. Hence the various conflicts around the world, the mongrels who will steal from you rather than earn an honest living, the vermin who will exploit innocent children through sexual depravity, sometimes hiding behind religion in the process. Slavery, drug dealing, forced prostitution, religious fanaticism – you name it. Unfortunately we can’t get rid of these unsavoury elements, in fact in some cases our laws actually help them to continue their crimes. Daniel Morcombe’s killer, for example, is a repeat sex offender who time and again has been released from jail instead of being locked up for life. So is the scumbag who raped and murdered Jill Meagher in Melbourne 18 months ago.

So what’s the answer to all this evil? Unfortunately there isn’t one. I think the best thing we can do is live decent lives, help people where we can, and enjoy our many blessings. Fortunately we live in a great country that gives us the opportunity to live a wonderful life if we choose to do so.
One thing that concerns me is that we’re importing hundreds of thousands of people from fanatical religions who don’t love our country and our lifestyle as we do. Little by little they’re forcing changes that are creating divisions and gradually impacting our freedoms and our way of life.
As a baby boomer living on acreage in a rural area, these changes are unlikely to affect me much during my lifetime. But it could be a different story for my grandkids and their children.
But what can you do?- not very much unfortunately. So I say lead the best life you can, help others where you can, and make the most of living in Australia – despite everything, it’s still the best country in the world.