QANTAS Grounds all Flights

sails · 31 October 2011

Much blame is being blamed on to Joyce's decision to ground all aircraft, but I notice that there is little said of the union dispute that was already causing delays and cancelled flights. I heard that Qantas passengers were down around 25% due to industrial action.

If one can look at it objectively, Joyce was most likely faced with two decisions. One was to let the unions continue to distrupt Qantas for at least another year or try and bring it to a head. If Joyce had let industrial action cripple the airline for another year, it's possible that they could lose far more than the 25% of passengers already cheesed off with union disruptions.

I agree with the VTIC comments below which wonders why nothing was done under the FWA act to protect the tourism industry long before this:

The Victoria Tourism Industry Council (VTIC) says while the termination of industrial action by Fair Work Australia early on Monday was welcome, the industrial umpire and the federal government should have stepped in sooner.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8367584/qantas-dispute-hits-australias-reputation

tinhat · 31 October 2011

Whiskers said:
Not quite right!

Qantas wanted a permenant termination of all industrial action and a conclusion to the dispute, via some agreed or FWA ruling.

The circumstances giving rise to the termination order was weighted much more heavily toward the 'protected' industrial action taken by Qantas, ie the lockout and consequential grounding of the fleet, than the union action.

At this stage there seems to be an order for termination of all industrial for 21 days with an extension of another 21 days if both parties agree progress is being made.

I cannot see any indication of an automatic determination by FWA of all the matters in the dispute if no resolution is not made within 21 days or any extension.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm

The Federal Government chose to take the action at FWA to seek termination, not QANTAS, although as you note this appears to be their intended outcome. Note, the federal minister could have made a determination under the act to terminate the industrial action but this may have wound up in court in any case.

Under FWA legislation, at the end of the twenty-one day negotiation period (subject to a possible twenty-one extension as you point out) , if not resolved, the matter goes to binding arbitration before the FWA. That may not have been included in the orders but it is, AFAIK (as a lay-man) the legislation.

You may also note from the timestamp of my previous post that I would not have had access to the written determination at the time of my post because I was following a live twitter feed from inside the FWA earlier this morning.

In any case parties have several avenues open to them to appeal the decision; either to the full bench of the Federal Court or straight to the High Court. I imagine that the legality of QANTAS lockout will be tested in court in time. The pilots union seem to feel that they have a good chance of demonstrating that the lock out of all of their pilots including those not involved in industrial action was not legal.

Xenaphon and the Greens want to look into the QANTAS sale act and hold an enquiry into whether QANTAS is complying and whether the act needs to be ammended due to QANTAS using subsidiaries as a loophole to the intention of the act. So this is an industrial relations and public policy war path that QANTAS is on now that is going to take quite some time to resolve.

Calliope · 31 October 2011

FWA - The Independent Arbitrator.

FAIR WORK AUSTRALIA JOBS FOR LABOR MATES
Trade union officials are five times more likely to be appointed as members of the ‘independent’ workplace umpire Fair Work Australia, than non-union officials, the Government has revealed.

In late 2009, then Workplace Relations Minister Julia Gillard, appointed 6 new members to serve as adjudicators on the bench of Fair Work Australia. Of these 6 appointments, 5 were ex-trade union officials and 1 was an ex-government bureaucrat.

In answers given to Senate Estimate questions from...

Shadow Minister for Employment & Workplace Relations, Senator Eric Abetz, the following has been revealed:
25 union officials applied for jobs with Fair Work Australia and 5 were successful – a success rate of one in five;
45 people from business or employer backgrounds applied and none were successful – a success rate of zero;
24 people with a legal background applied and none were successful - a success rate of zero;
30 people with a government background applied and 1 was successful – a success rate of one in thirty; and
25 people with backgrounds in human resource management or consulting applied and 0 were successful – a success rate of zero.

http://www.wa.liberal.org.au/general/fair-work-australia-jobs-for-labor-mates

Whiskers · 31 October 2011

sails said:
Much blame is being blamed on to Joyce's decision to ground all aircraft, but I notice that there is little said of the union dispute that was already causing delays and cancelled flights. I heard that Qantas passengers were down around 25% due to industrial action.

If one can look at it objectively, Joyce was most likely faced with two decisions. One was to let the unions continue to distrupt Qantas for at least another year or try and bring it to a head. If Joyce had let industrial action cripple the airline for another year, it's possible that they could lose far more than the 25% of passengers already cheesed off with union disruptions.

I agree with the VTIC comments below which wonders why nothing was done under the FWA act to protect the tourism industry long before this:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8367584/qantas-dispute-hits-australias-reputation

From reading the FWA ruling and reasons for their judgement, it seems like the union action was not significantly disruptive to warrant direct government action under s431 or the current application under s424.

The FWA mentions it cannot stop protected union action in persuit of a log of claims unless certain extraordinary circumstances exist.

tinhat said:
The Federal Government chose to take the action at FWA to seek termination, not QANTAS, although as you note this appears to be their intended outcome. Note, the federal minister could have made a determination under the act to terminate the industrial action but this may have wound up in court in any case.

Under FWA legislation, at the end of the twenty-one day negotiation period (subject to a possible twenty-one extension as you point out) , if not resolved, the matter goes to binding arbitration before the FWA. That may not have been included in the orders but it is, AFAIK (as a lay-man) the legislation.

You may also note from the timestamp of my previous post that I would not have had access to the written determination at the time of my post because I was following a live twitter feed from inside the FWA earlier this morning.

In any case parties have several avenues open to them to appeal the decision; either to the full bench of the Federal Court or straight to the High Court. I imagine that the legality of QANTAS lockout will be tested in court in time. The pilots union seem to feel that they have a good chance of demonstrating that the lock out of all of their pilots including those not involved in industrial action was not legal.

Xenaphon and the Greens want to look into the QANTAS sale act and hold an enquiry into whether QANTAS is complying and whether the act needs to be ammended due to QANTAS using subsidiaries as a loophole to the intention of the act. So this is an industrial relations and public policy war path that QANTAS is on now that is going to take quite some time to resolve.

I take your point about your timing.

The only clarification I would add is that in arbitration before FWA the FWA would need an application by a party for a particular ruling to be binding. At the moment I don't see any application on the log of claims for the Enterprise Agreement itself, only the process for getting to some agreement.

But I agree with you, there may be many twists and turns and court rulings about the legality of things before this is settled.

McLovin · 31 October 2011

Whiskers said:
From reading the FWA ruling and reasons for their judgement, it seems like the union action was not significantly disruptive to warrant direct government action under s431 or the current application under s424.

The FWA mentions it cannot stop protected union action in persuit of a log of claims unless certain extraordinary circumstances exist.

That was the plan of the unions. To create disruption to Qantas but not enough disruption that it could lead to s431 action.

sails · 31 October 2011

tinhat said:
...The pilots union seem to feel that they have a good chance of demonstrating that the lock out of all of their pilots including those not involved in industrial action was not legal.....

Maybe they will have a case, however, it takes much more team work than a pilot to get a large passenger aeroplane off the ground safely.

overhang · 31 October 2011

Maybe Mr Joyce could take a leaf our of this CEO's book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4vTiYM4m24

joea · 31 October 2011

Qantas dispute general points.
Joyce won. He can now get most of the points accepted by both sides on paper, with the non agreed points going to FWA. The ultimate for Qantas is to have a business plan that will work in the future.
Qantas may now have a chance in Asia.

Tony Abbott may now be able to tweak Labors Industrial Relations, as this sort of stand off should not have been allowed to happen. It shows a weakness of FWA.
Abbott has been reluctant to be drawn in to IR because of the dislike of Work Choices.

Interesting times ahead.
joea

Boggo · 31 October 2011

Really not sure why everyone is having problems getting back to Australia.

All they need to do is get to Indonesia and catch the Christmas Island ferry service, direct service, it runs 24 hrs a day everyday and when you get to your destination customs come to you and you also get free accommodation and meals.

Quit yer bitchin

Whiskers · 31 October 2011

Not a lot has changed.

Joyce didn't get what he wanted in terms of causing the unions to drop or have their demands ruled on... all seems to be for naught so far... they still have to continue on negotiating where they left off.

joea said:
Qantas dispute general points.
Joyce won. He can now get most of the points accepted by both sides on paper, with the non agreed points going to FWA.
joea

He could have done that anytime before to force a resolution to the claims, but he didn't. He chose to try to use the big stick and if you read the detail of the ruling, has pretty well missed the unions and hit himself in the foot... ie his lockout has been broken, but the union demands are still there to be negotiated.

sptrawler · 31 October 2011

Whiskers said:
Not a lot has changed.

Joyce didn't get what he wanted in terms of causing the unions to drop or have their demands ruled on... all seems to be for naught so far... they still have to continue on negotiating where they left off.

He could have done that anytime before to force a resolution to the claims, but he didn't. He chose to try to use the big stick and if you read the detail of the ruling, has pretty well missed the unions and hit himself in the foot... ie his lockout has been broken, but the union demands are still there to be negotiated.

From what I have heard, whiskers, the ruling gives a negotiation period. Then if no resolution is found a binding order will be made by FWA. I can't see how the union will not be creamed, unless the Government is prepared to fund the union demands.
I would guess with the FWA ruling to terminate all industrial action, it will give Joyce the breathing space required to fast track the changes adopted at the A.G.M.
The unions have probably just accelerated the speed with which Joyce will introduce the changes.
He has shown the Government he isn't going to be intimidated, therefore Gillard will have to put herself out on a limb to stop him from carrying out the proposals.
I for one think she will stop talking on the issue, there is no way she can stop Qantas from implimenting a business stratergy without raising the sovereign risk issue.

kavla1970 · 31 October 2011

Boggo said:
Really not sure why everyone is having problems getting back to Australia.

All they need to do is get to Indonesia and catch the Christmas Island ferry service, direct service, it runs 24 hrs a day everyday and when you get to your destination customs come to you and you also get free accommodation and meals.

Quit yer bitchin

:

Julia · 31 October 2011

Boggo said:
Really not sure why everyone is having problems getting back to Australia.

All they need to do is get to Indonesia and catch the Christmas Island ferry service, direct service, it runs 24 hrs a day everyday and when you get to your destination customs come to you and you also get free accommodation and meals.

Quit yer bitchin

:

sptrawler · 31 October 2011

Well it looks as though the government had ample warning of the impending grounding and could have stopped the grounding.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-but-was-ignored/story-e6freuy9-1226180960683

It doesn't look good for Julia and the boys as usual. Not wanting to be uncaring but she found time to phone Indonesia when one of our tourists was arrested for drug possesion.
One would think she would have made time to ring Qantas back, I am sure the urgency of the request would have been forwarded to her.
The fall out this week will be interesting.

Calliope · 31 October 2011

The Transport Workers Union is hell-bent on destroying Qantas.

Tony Sheldon, one of the architects of the union strategy of bleeding Qantas into submission with erratic work stoppages spread over months. Sheldon is national secretary of the Transport Workers Union and, as pointed out a week ago, is running for the presidency of the Labor Party.
It says a great deal that Sheldon thinks bringing the national flag-carrier to its knees is a credential he can use to become president of the ALP. This is not a cynical observation given the numerous deals made by a union-dominated federal government.
The context for the Qantas dispute is the Gillard government's transformation of industrial relations. Passing the Fair Work Act 2009 and setting up Fair Work Australia to replace the Industrial Relations Commission has re-empowered the unions. As well, of the 11 Fair Work Australia commissioners appointed by the Gillard government, nine are former union officials or union advocates. The other two are career bureaucrats.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...s-faltering-20111030-1mqgv.html#ixzz1cKyX3RPs

Bintang · 31 October 2011

Whiskers said:
Not a lot has changed.

Joyce didn't get what he wanted in terms of causing the unions to drop or have their demands ruled on... all seems to be for naught so far... they still have to continue on negotiating where they left off.

He could have done that anytime before to force a resolution to the claims, but he didn't. He chose to try to use the big stick and if you read the detail of the ruling, has pretty well missed the unions and hit himself in the foot... ie his lockout has been broken, but the union demands are still there to be negotiated.

I think Joyce achieved his primary objective which was to have all strike action stopped so as to create some certainty for Qantas customers. I for one have been wanting to book two trips with Qantas before year end but have purposely not done so because of the ongoing union industrial action. I am now prepared to make those bookings. There are probably others in similar circmstances. The ongoing union disruption to Qantas was scaring customers away. That's what needed to be fixed and fixed quickly and I agree with the tactics used to achieve. However something I don't agree with is the pay rise given to Joyce just before this happened. It was just an act of needless stupidity and PR suicide.

Boggo · 31 October 2011

Bintang said:
However something I don't agree with is the pay rise given to Joyce just before this happened. It was just an act of needless stupidity and PR suicide.

To be fair to him, he did take a pay cut when he left Jetstar and Geoff Dixon was getting paid twice as much ($10 mill p/a) in the same position and got $12 mill in his last year.

This process that we are seeing now was actually put in place in 2004 by Dixon and the rest of the 'pallett of Grange Hermitage for Xmas' brigade.

The stuff the public are not seeing are the scenarios such as employing flight attendants in asian cities who work for 20 hours a day for $20k pa.
The company employing the flighties is funded by.... you guessed correctly.
This is an indication of what is really going on that the public are unaware of and that the unions are fully aware of.
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/more-claims-jetstar-is-exploiting-staff-20110930-1l0bq.html

and...
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...seas-cabin-crew-contracts-20110728-1i1br.html

sails · 31 October 2011

Calliope said:
The Transport Workers Union is hell-bent on destroying Qantas...

Classic example of biting the hand that feeds you.

The hand might not be perfect, but when it brings in the weekly pay packet, it seems rather stupid to try and bite it until it bleeds to death.

joea · 31 October 2011

sails said:
Classic example of biting the hand that feeds you.

The hand might not be perfect, but when it brings in the weekly pay packet, it seems rather stupid to try and bite it until it bleeds to death.

I think everybody is entitled to an opinion, and I completely agree with the above.
If Qantas wants to compete in Asia, then the airline has to be competitive.

As for Asian workers, I think they would love to work for Qantas.
After all you can get a video for 50 cents,( yeah it might be a copy), but it beats Australian prices and food is relatively cheap.

I am quitely thinking that, if this does not come out right for Qantas, will we have an International Qantas.
I hope we will.

Finally I do not think unkindly of Joyce's pay rise. That was the incentive to get results.
joea

Calliope · 31 October 2011

joea said:
I think everybody is entitled to an opinion, and I completely agree with the above.
If Qantas wants to compete in Asia, then the airline has to be competitive.

As for Asian workers, I think they would love to work for Qantas.
After all you can get a video for 50 cents,( yeah it might be a copy), but it beats Australian prices and food is relatively cheap.

I am quitely thinking that, if this does not come out right for Qantas, will we have an International Qantas.
I hope we will.

Finally I do not think unkindly of Joyce's pay rise. That was the incentive to get results.
joea

It's a pity we can't have Asian stewardesses on Qantas planes in Australia. If Cathay and Singapore Airlines are anything to go by they run rings around our old dogs, in both appearance and service. They are also friendlier.

QANTAS Grounds all Flights

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