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I love the canard often used about maintenance being offshored leading to a reduction in standards. Maintenance is being offshored all around the world, there hasn't been a noticeable increase in incidents from those carriers that have offshored their maintenance. It's just a convenient trick of the unions to play on xenophobia.
Its not so much the quality of the work, its getting the work done when it needs to be done.
There is a current mod on the Roller engines that QF cannot get done because they are at the back of the queue behind the asian operators that should have been done 12 months ago, a few years ago they would have done it themselves.
Just more of the same, get used to it...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-11-06/another-qantas-flight-grounded-after-engine-failure/2326036
Originally Posted by McLovin
I love the canard often used about maintenance being offshored leading to a reduction in standards. Maintenance is being offshored all around the world, there hasn't been a noticeable increase in incidents from those carriers that have offshored their maintenance. It's just a convenient trick of the unions to play on xenophobia.
Generalizations are of little help.
Again, it's not just a matter of offshoring, it's a matter of the particular expertise and equipment that your circumstance demands being available and done in a timely manner.
And finally keeping within the laws and regulations of your operation... that the majority of operations be based in Aus. There is some ambiguity of the interpretation of the majority of operations being tested by Qantas. For example Qantas might feel that it can offshore all of it's maintaince operations and still have most of it's operations based in Aus. This is likely to test the original intention of the act which may have been intended to mean each individual function, eg maintaince, must be majority Aus based.
Complex situation.
Overheads are very high for QF.
Staff costs are through the roof. I very much doubt that a EK/AF/LH A380 pilot gets paid what a QF A380 pilot gets. Not to mention that some of the middle eastern carriers are also in tax free countries.
Australia is also a end-of-point destination, whereas Asia and Middle East (EK-Dubai), are fantastic transit points on the globe.
QF had to do something to fend off the unions and unrealistic demands they demanded.
Complex situation.
Overheads are very high for QF.
Staff costs are through the roof. I very much doubt that a EK/AF/LH A380 pilot gets paid what a QF A380 pilot gets. Not to mention that some of the middle eastern carriers are also in tax free countries.
Australia is also a end-of-point destination, whereas Asia and Middle East (EK-Dubai), are fantastic transit points on the globe.
QF had to do something to fend off the unions and unrealistic demands they demanded.
Which generalisation? If you have evidence that offshoring of maintenance has lead to an increase in incidents then I'd love to see it.
I'm sure someone in Kunming can be trained to be an aircraft engineer just as
well as someone in Sydney.
Ditch the Sale Act or nationalise the airline. The current situation is not
sustainable. You have a government supposedly pro free-trade imposing artificial
barriers to trade for a major Australian company. Airlines are a sh!tty enough
business to be in, forcing an airline to compete in an open market but imposing restrictions (on ownership and operations) is unfair.
Your assertion that "there hasn't been a noticeable increase in incidents from those carriers that have offshored their maintenance"
That maybe on average, but that is no comfort for one that is below the average and has a serious incident... or increased incidents as Qantas is suffering.
Whiskers said:What I said was, with renewed emphasis...
"Again, it's not just a matter of offshoring, it's a matter of the particular expertise and equipment that your circumstance demands being available and done in a timely manner."Yes new engineers can be trained, albeit experience is an invaluable assett in sophisticated engineering... but my point was you also need the right and enough equipment, which is also not always so readily available or easily obtained and collectively you need it all to come together in a timely framework so that as boggo has already pointed out, you are not languishing in a cue in someone elses workshop where you don't have priority treatment when you need it.
Whiskers said:I don't necessairly dissagree with that... BUT that is the environment atm to which Joyce must conform, unless he can force a law change, hence my mention at the outset of the thread of the likes of Franklin on the share registry and investigations into unusual or suspicious trading in Qantas prior to the lockout.
Whiskers said:My point has always been about the effectiveness/wisdom of his strategy in resolving conflict to get a win win solution, as opposed to a win lose solution which aggrevates people you have to continue working with.
...there are those who think that Qantas is an eternal Australian icon, which will forever be protected like koalas are. If you subscribe to this view, then Alan Joyce's action was of course utterly disproportionate because there is no threat to Qantas' existence and all there is at the moment is the usual run-of-the-mill industrial kerfuffle, like a disagreement about the length of tea breaks.
I think that the third group [described above] are actually the most insidiously dangerous, because it isn't unreasonable for a rational but uninformed Australian layman to hold this view. Qantas has been a national icon for decades, to the extent that its status is enshrined in specific legislation. It's dangerous because this groupthink could actually affect the way that decision-makers approach the situation. This view completely fails to understand how Qantas is now teetering on the brink and radical measures need to be taken, or else the company will continue its inexorable transformation into "Jetstar Group", a company for which Qantas is merely a historical footnote.
As someone with a background in maintenance and the management of a maintenance workforce (albeit not in the aviation industry), I'd be looking at these likely explanations:Qantas has being having maintenance incidents for a few years and that is with the current maintenance workforce.
They seem to be having more problems than the Asian based carriers. This may be due to things out of their control, but it does reflect badly on their maintenance personel and or proceedures.
Which in turn dilutes the arguement that safety standards will drop if the work is carried out overseas.
I would take (1) the mean average and (2) the worst actual incidents as the relevant measures.But isn't that the most sensible way to approach it. Rather than take specific examples as evidence of flawed maintenance. If the averages have remained stable then that would indicate the level of service is ok.
Actually, I don't think the average Australian would give a damn.Exactly, the problem is that the average travelling public (no disrespect to anyone) are just not aware of what is really going on behind the scenes and the pollies are turning a blind eye.
Imagine the uproar if the WA miners started a fly in/fly out service from Manila or Bangkok instead of Perth !
Exactly.Exactly. If the status quo is maintained then QF international will be done in a few years. And "Qantas" will become an amusing footnote on the balance sheet of Jetstar.
Reasonable point. A few decades ago, one would never have seen the number of 'incidents' that have occurred in the last few years.Your assertion that "there hasn't been a noticeable increase in incidents from those carriers that have offshored their maintenance"
That maybe on average, but that is no comfort for one that is below the average and has a serious incident... or increased incidents as Qantas is suffering.
but hey, they're unions and have that peculiar mentality.
I'm sure someone in "Kunming"can be trained to do your job too,Which generalisation? If you have evidence that offshoring of maintenance has lead to an increase in incidents then I'd love to see it.
I'm sure someone in Kunming can be trained to be an aircraft engineer just as well as someone in Sydney.
Ditch the Sale Act or nationalise the airline. The current situation is not sustainable. You have a government supposedly pro free-trade imposing artificial barriers to trade for a major Australian company. Airlines are a sh!tty enough business to be in, forcing an airline to compete in an open market but imposing restrictions (on ownership and operations) is unfair.
Smurph you are spot on, outsourcing maintenace doesn't necessarily mean a better outcome. But with Qantas like you say the planes are getting tired and the maintenance appears to be lacking. The incident rate over the last few years is increasing dramatically.
The problem may require a massive injection of capital to renew the fleet. This can be achieved by an increased revenue stream or a reduction in operating costs.
However one thing for sure something has to be done or a catastrophe will happen.
I'm sure someone in "Kunming"can be trained to do your job too,
how would you feel about that at a cut price alternative.
Worked on big construction jobs in W.A during boom times when supervisors were telling me how good these 457 blokes were.
They got a bit funny when i mentioned that they have supervisors in the Philipines that are just as skilled as them and can be employed cheaper than there shiny arses
I'll attempt to answer that.Whiskers, given that you are so disapproving of Mr Joyce's actions, how exactly would you suggest he could have resolved the situation?
And no need to go on about dispute resolution skills. We accept that Mr Joyce is hardly a model for demonstration here.
However, his patience has been sorely tried, and the unions are clearly 'out to get him' in a pretty personal sense, plus they obviously want to see the airline stuffed.
How on earth they can imagine this will translate to protecting their jobs is beyond me, but hey, they're unions and have that peculiar mentality.
I'm sure someone in "Kunming"can be trained to do your job too,
how would you feel about that at a cut price alternative.
Was on the flight a couple of weeks back that hit birds on take off,not a maintenance issue but bloody frightening when you hear a jet engine of that size detonating and trying to fire at full throttle.
Was issued a $200 voucher for the 14hour trip to Melbourne as compo.
Many crownies in the q club feel sorry for the people who had no access to free beer
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