Pub hours may be on ideas summit agenda

Pub hours may be on ideas summit agenda

Calls to limit the number of bars and shorten pub opening hours in a bid to tackle binge drinking are set to be examined by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's 2020 ideas summit.

The head of World Vision Australia, Tim Costello, has urged governments to tighten rules governing pubs and clubs, especially the number of outlets and closing times.

The push follows a disturbing report by the Australian National Council on Drugs (ANCD) this week which found about one tenth of teenagers abused alcohol in a typical week.

Among 16 and 17-year-olds the figure was one in five, while more than 450,000 children live in homes in which adults binge drink.

"There are far too many outlets," Mr Costello said.

"Closing times need to be adjusted. The way we serve alcohol in a responsible way, the codes for serving alcohol, need to be tightened."

Mr Costello, a member of the summit's steering committee, wants the problem of alcohol abuse and teenage binge drinking to be high on the talkfest's agenda.

Mr Rudd, who has described the binge-drinking problem as "an epidemic" supports the summit examining the problem, but warns that government alone can't solve the issue.

"As a community and a government, we need to act...but with most social problems, it's not just government alone. Community and families... need to work in partnership with us as well," he said.

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Continues: http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=463304

Why is it that in Australia the first response to any perceived problem in society is to attack the freedoms of everyone? Someone goes on a shooting spree? Ban firearms. Too many kids drinking booze? Restrict opening hours of bars and pubs. In other words, punish everyone for the moronic behaviour of a few.

Why do a majority of Australians always think the best solution to any problem is government intervention? Is it because we are one of the world's greatest nanny states? Something else?

What do ASF'ers think of the idea of restricting pub/bottle shop hours? Is it just me or is anyone else getting tired of the government in this country deciding what is best for us consenting adults?

In my opinion if it is introduced it will have no noticeable effect. Underage drinkers will just buy more booze during opening hours and start drinking on the streets out of bottles. The solution to the underage drinking problem - which has always been with us, it certainly was when I was underage - isn't in restricting the trading hours of pubs and bottleshops, it's in education and better parenting.

Opinions?

It's an issue I've had quite a lot of involvement with, to the point of helping organise a protest rally at one stage.

IMO late trading pubs and clubs are not the real problem anymore than cars are the cause of speeding. Sure, excess drinking happens at night and speeding happens in cars, but getting rid of either isn't really the best way to go.

The major problem I see with nightclubs especially is three fold.

First, there is total ignorance of the massive growth in drug use over the past 5 years. Anyone who says this doesn't cause trouble doesn't spend much time in the immediate vicinity outside clubs. It is the single most noticeable factor - people who haven't yet started drinking already starting fights before many are even inside the club.

Seccond, staff are now almost totally focused on checking ID and keeping under-18's out that they don't have the resources to do much else. And keeping them out only means, in practice, that they end up drinking far more alcohol unsupervised than they would in a club.

Third, the growing popularity of drinks intended to do nothing but make you drunk. Tastes like ****, many throw up or come close to passing out but you get drunk. Big problem there.

My solution, and yes it's a radical one, is to simply turn the clock back. Stop worrying about underage drinkers inside clubs where they are relatively safe and keep them off the streets outside (policing). And while the police are at it, get the drug users out of the way too, just as they would have done not that long ago.

As for the issue outside of clubs and pubs, trading hours have no real effect there at all. Closing the bottle shop at 6pm won't stop anyone having a party at home later that night.

That one comes down to education and role models - make it as socially unacceptable to show drinking on TV etc as it is to show smoking. We don't ever see a sports person, politician etc with a cigarette in their hand and we shouldn't see them with alcohol either. Remove the image that drinking = grown up and successful.

Great, even less things for young people to do!

Don't know how restricting pub hours is going to stop underage binge drinking. Will just mean more overage people getting drunk at home... which is the result of restricting live music venues etc. anyway. Really brainy...

Target the proper demographics; punish the children / parents harshly for such offences :

A fine of 5-10k per offence would stem underage drinking easily enough.

Until individuals are responsible for their own actions, the punishment will fall upon the group.

chops_a_must said:

Great, even less things for young people to do!

Don't know how restricting pub hours is going to stop underage binge drinking. Will just mean more overage people getting drunk at home... which is the result of restricting live music venues etc. anyway. Really brainy...

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Two and a half years ago this was full on mainstream debate in Hobart following the closure of a major nightclub. Dominated local talk back radio, dominated the letters to the editor, petitions were circulating and so on.

As supporters of the club said at the time, nothing would be solved other than to relocate the problem to the suburbs with a major increase in "house parties".

And that situation plus an increase in problems around remaining clubs is precisely what happened. Clubbers 1, Licensing, police and politicians 0.

Given that most of the country has the exact same underlying issues it's no surprise to see the same thing happen elsewhere. If you're 17 and going to drink then you're going to do it no matter what some bouncer says about ID. Only difference is in the club versus on the street.

Personally, I'd much rather the 16 and 17 year olds be in licensed premises under proper supervision than roaming the streets drinking whatever cheap booze they can get their hands on. Forget the law, it just means less trouble having them in than out. It's easier to control one crowd in a club than try and patrol hundreds of back streets, laneways and so on.

A decade ago we had clubs open to 5am. We didn't have 3am lockouts and there wasn't anywhere near the focus on keeping under 18's out. And we didn't have anywhere near as much trouble as we do now.

Message to the authorities - it ain't working and the definition of stupidity is repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting different results.

IMO leave the age for the purchase of take away alcohol as it is or maybe even put it back to 21. But lower the age for drinking in a hotel / club to 16. And put the resources into responsible service, policing the streets and moving the druggies on (anywhere away from the crowds will do) instead of this futile obsession with checking ID that just isn't working.

The whole thing is a classic case of government meddling turning a small problem into a massive one. Make it illegal and it's immediately desirable. A point that governments just don't seem to get.

All that plus stop linking alcohol with success. Something that even Mr Rudd himself has indirectly done.

Smurf1976 said:

A decade ago we had clubs open to 5am. We didn't have 3am lockouts and there wasn't anywhere near the focus on keeping under 18's out. And we didn't have anywhere near as much trouble as we do now.

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I can assure you that most fights happen at places that close early.

Reasons for this:

People getting kicked out before they are done.

Aggressive bouncers.

A mill of drunk people congregating outside places or on the street, all waiting for taxis at exactly the same time, or looking for something else/ somewhere to go/ do.

If you have clubs open until 5, at least you don't get the crowding and problems outside. People gradually filter out of late night places about 3, I've noticed. But at least it gives people a chance to feel as if they have had their night's worth, people leave more orderly, and there isn't a big crush for taxis all at the same time.

Personally, though - I don't even understand the big issue here?
Why do folks need to "party", especially until 5am? Good lord, as if 3am isn't late enough! I'm in bed way before 12 ...

I guess I just don't understand why drinking heavily / "clubbing" until sunrise the next morning has become the untouchable norm? What with all the petitions, & complaints - it seems as if this has become a staple of life? Where people need, & must have this? "Take away our clubs, we'll party on the streets, & in houses!"


Probably even contributing to the housing crisis! Young people blowing all their money on drugs, & booze ...

P.S; Before you begin calling me an oldie, I'm a young chap

stockGURU said:

Continues: http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=463304

Why is it that in Australia the first response to any perceived problem in society is to attack the freedoms of everyone? Someone goes on a shooting spree? Ban firearms. Too many kids drinking booze? Restrict opening hours of bars and pubs. In other words, punish everyone for the moronic behaviour of a few.

Why do a majority of Australians always think the best solution to any problem is government intervention? Is it because we are one of the world's greatest nanny states? Something else?

What do ASF'ers think of the idea of restricting pub/bottle shop hours? Is it just me or is anyone else getting tired of the government in this country deciding what is best for us consenting adults?

In my opinion if it is introduced it will have no noticeable effect. Underage drinkers will just buy more booze during opening hours and start drinking on the streets out of bottles. The solution to the underage drinking problem - which has always been with us, it certainly was when I was underage - isn't in restricting the trading hours of pubs and bottleshops, it's in education and better parenting.

Opinions?

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I think you're talking nonsense Guru. How is this attacking everyones' freedom? There is no right to bear arms in this contry, unlike the USA. One of the best things Howard ever did was to restrict the use of firearms. And regarding grog, what freedom? I can remeber when the drinking age was 21, pubs closed at (mostly) 10PM and there were restrictions on Sundays. It is only changes over the years allowing longer hours that has happened. Who is to say it doesnt go back the other way. Nothing to do with "freedom". I dont mind debating the issue related to grog but to bring up the "f" word in the debate, in my opinion, is nonsense.

Now I do like a drink or two or three but the issue being raised here is chronic overuse and abuse leading to appalling anti-social behaviour that impacts on other people, not just the users. The situation is getting out of hand at a number of places, and some people are saying "enough is enough, it's gone too far". The pendulum needs to swing back a bit - the debate is "how far?".

I notice in WA that a number of pubs and clubs are restricting the use of shooters. If they are forgoing profit, then there is clearly a problem that they recognise and are doing something serious about it. It remains to be seen whether this will last.

People (and that includes the police, who have to put up with the crap that results from this abuse) in WA have had enough of police being killed and seriously injured by drunken bogans and yobos. I dont blame them.

Interesting to note that restricting take away liquor in the Kimberly is having a (positive) impact on alcohol abuse in some communities. Although the debate on that issue is probably best covered in another thread.

No, I see no harm in the government taking a lead on this issue and opening up the debate.

The answer is mind-numbingly obvious....

Imbue all alcoholic beverages with a modicum of sleeping agent. (eg: "SNOOZE" TM - as trialled by the Goodies some yonks back...).

So,

(a) after 1 standard drink - *YAWN*
(b) after 2 standard drinks - **LIGHTS OUT**

No more violence. No more out-of-control binge parties. Lots of compliant snoring. Piece of cake.



Chiz,


AJ

While I agree with what the government did with the restriction of firearms, I would not agree with a restriction on alcohol.

Im from the country myself, where firearms are useful, and realistically, the firearm laws had little effect, apart from causing a few farmers to whinge about it originally.

Alcohol, however, is a much broader issue, and is consumed by the vast majority, be it wine, beer, spirits etc.

To me there is very little difference between those that truely enjoy a form of alcohol, say beer, than those that enjoy sampling different types of coffee etc.

Me and my mates can quite happily saty at our local till 3 or 4am playing pool and drinking nice beverages and just having a good time and getting slightly tipsy.

I agree with StockGuru how it is the minority that ruin it for the rest of us. I also agree with Nyden that if they cracked down on underagers properly, it would stop it fairly quickly

Smurf1976 said:

Stop worrying about underage drinkers inside clubs where they are relatively safe and keep them off the streets outside (policing)

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Keeping underaged people out of clubs is not only an issue of drinking, but also underaged sex, in a club you know that whoever you pick up (if you choose to) is of legal age and not some drunk 16/17 year old who looks old for their age, then the next morning you have the police and the parents of said child on you doorstep.

This isn't a problem that can be solved with a one step solution, perhaps enforcing the whole "we will not serve alcohol to intoxicated patrons" <--this is a seriously trodden on policy, clubs and bars will get serious when licenses start being revoked by the dozens. Thats a good start. Anyone else want to pitch in?

phoenix_gr said:

Keeping underaged people out of clubs is not only an issue of drinking, but also underaged sex, in a club you know that whoever you pick up (if you choose to) is of legal age and not some drunk 16/17 year old who looks old for their age, then the next morning you have the police and the parents of said child on you doorstep.

This isn't a problem that can be solved with a one step solution, perhaps enforcing the whole "we will not serve alcohol to intoxicated patrons" <--this is a seriously trodden on policy, clubs and bars will get serious when licenses start being revoked by the dozens. Thats a good start. Anyone else want to pitch in?

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I'm really only using the U-18's bit to compare, say, mid 1990's with now and see what has changed. Something must have changed or we wouldn't be having all this trouble now as we sure didn't in the past.

A decade ago it was pretty easy for anyone who looked like they were close to 18 to get into most clubs. And in reality there would have been hardly anyone who hadn't been in well before their 18th birthday. Police did the occasional token raid but that was it - nobody really cared.

Likewise closing time was well after most had left anyway. Anyone still there at 5am was tired and likely getting bored with it anyway. So no unhappy people kicked out early.

Lockouts are another one. If there's one sure way to increase the effects of alcohol then it's to keep drinking and avoid eating. Precisely the result of the lockouts which keep drinkers at the bar and away from the local chip shop.

There's also a point about business viability here too. I can't comment for all clubs, but I know of one quite large mainstream club where breakeven point financially was about 2am. The last 3 hours of trading made 100% of the profits, everything before that was just paying rent, wages and so on. If they were forced to close earlier then there was only one option from a financial perspective - get them drunk as much and as fast as possible in order to cram 7 hours worth of sales into half that time. Then turf the drunks out on the street in the middle of the night with nowhere to go. Either that or just go broke responsibly serving alcohol.

So the basic question I am asking is this. What has changed now compared to a decade ago? Opening hours are no longer and in many cases shorter. We have lockouts now that we didn't have then. We put the underage drinkers on the streets now instead of in clubs. And drug use is far more mainstream.

One thing I've noticed on visits there (and yes I've been out at night) is that Adelaide seems to have relatively few problems. I certainly feel a lot safer on the streets there at 3am than I would in most other Australian cities. Why I'm not sure but I do note that police there seem very casual and relaxed which probably helps the public relations side a bit. Also the clubbing area is fairly concentrated in a physical sense, lighting is good, no silly rules and food is easily available. Also there seems to be plenty of capacity in total so whilst a few popular clubs have queues, everyone can get in somewhere. Bouncers don't seem too aggressive either. No doubt problems do exist, but it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as elsewhere.

Nyden said:

Personally, though - I don't even understand the big issue here?
Why do folks need to "party", especially until 5am? Good lord, as if 3am isn't late enough! I'm in bed way before 12 ...

I guess I just don't understand why drinking heavily / "clubbing" until sunrise the next morning has become the untouchable norm? What with all the petitions, & complaints - it seems as if this has become a staple of life? Where people need, & must have this? "Take away our clubs, we'll party on the streets, & in houses!"


Probably even contributing to the housing crisis! Young people blowing all their money on drugs, & booze ...

P.S; Before you begin calling me an oldie, I'm a young chap

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Regulate the shops etc and enforce restrict trading hours to no earlier than 8AM and no later than 6pm 7 days for all but essential activities (hospitals, police etc). Fix a lot of problems, the need to go out late at night included, but would probably wreck the economy in the process.

The idea of somone partying at 3am is no more ridiculous than supermarket shopping at 8pm or buying petrol at 6 in the morning. None of them are actually necessary as such, but once you allow one and run a 24/7 economy then there's no real option for many people other than to have all of them. People can't socialise or otherwise enjoy their lives when they're working and there's an awful lot of young people especially who don't work 9-5 monday to friday - a situation forced on them rather than one they choose in most cases.