Laughable? Can you pls elaborate?
Is it because the price jumped up so much on the first day? Good for all the trading folks out there who got in early but that is not the game my post is referring to.
Thanks
jkool
I was crazy about this float at $5 and the criticisms posted in that post are laughable..
Is it because the price jumped up so much on the first day? Good for all the trading folks out there who got in early but that is not the game my post is referring to.
The fund was only started in 1995 and where had the market had any down year ever since 1995?
12 years of historical performance not good enough
I may appear to be too prudent about this, however I don’t really consider its promoted stellar performance of only 12 past years sufficient enough to put my money in it for the long haul.
a) not a relevant criticism of PTM's OPERATIONAL BUSINESSListing on historical highs
As any of you would probably know, in the last few weeks the ASX has been breaking its historical records on almost daily basis. Just how long this run can continue and, more importantly, how can any manager keep on generating similarly stellar from such a high cost basis are the questions an intelligent investor surely needs to ask himself.
Buying IPO = higher risk
PTM remains 75% owned by staff. Those staff are also paid as a result of the fees they geneerate from performance. I don't see how anyone could think that after PTM unlock 25% of the equity of the business, they will raise fees to such a high rate that it will cause everyone to withdraw their money, resulting in a) there not being any fees to pay wages with b) making their 75% equity interest worthlesss.Fees fees fees
Firstly, there have been down years, 2002 as the author notably points out. #2, Platnium's International Fund is INTERNATIONAL..looking at the performance of the All Ords is ridiculous, there's a relevant benchmark provided there and PTM is well exceeding it.
10 years would be ok if it was complete. I dont think that a series of % returns alone is sufficient enough.So how many years is appropriate? Would 15 do it? 20? 30? It's ridiculous to speak of a certain number.
I get it. They do short selling and they do overseas markets. They should make some profits regardless of which way the market is headed.a) not a relevant criticism of PTM's OPERATIONAL BUSINESS
b) PTM is long/short
c) PTM isn't ASX only
Total misunderstanding of PTM's business.
Well at least to me, an IPO without sufficient credible records I can look at (the records may be out there maybe I just did not look hard enough, I certainly dont see them in the PDS though as per your second qoute), is investing blind folded.No evidence. Silly blank statement to make.
Sure they need to pay their staff. But how many fees is enough? Why not instead of preset values a share in profits once they exceed their benchmark? IMHO the tricky forest of fees reminds me a mobile phone contract and hence does not really help to build much confidence. That goes for PTM as well as for any other fund.PTM remains 75% owned by staff. Those staff are also paid as a result of the fees they geneerate from performance. I don't see how anyone could think that after PTM unlock 25% of the equity of the business, they will raise fees to such a high rate that it will cause everyone to withdraw their money, resulting in a) there not being any fees to pay wages with b) making their 75% equity interest worthlesss.
No brainer for the short term? Sure I acknowledged that in the last paragraph. But whatabout long term? But I guess not many people is interested in distant future now is it?Does this mean its worth $9? Up to you. But at $5 (which is only a small premium on a PERPETUAL DIVIDEND DISCOUNT MODEL at 12% WACC, also consider imputation credits) it was a no brainer.
And thats confusing me most. The normally conservative folks over at Intelligent Investor valued this off the bat as buy upto $7.50 ie from what I see thats around 22 times earnings. How did they come to that figure? By comparing to Perpetual or other funds as you do? They dont really say much on that.I didn't think an asset management company would open at a 70% premium though..I was hoping to pick up at 6-6.50 as I missed out on the IPO.
The bastards didn't send me or my parents the prospectus as promissed. When I heard the days gains I think I could honstly have walked in the front door and throttled someone.
F**CK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More to the benchmarks to one's investment (this is just a cut&paste from my post on another good aussie investing forum; yes I have been copping some flak left and right since posting the articleFirstly, there have been down years, 2002 as the author notably points out. #2, Platnium's International Fund is INTERNATIONAL..looking at the performance of the All Ords is ridiculous, there's a relevant benchmark provided there and PTM is well exceeding it.
Twice I bought and sold this share today,not often have I done this on a first day listing. But for all the euphoria in the price, personally I would not be suprised to see this share slide/retract over the next few days or even next week. I hope so, the Insto's might then delve into this carcass. I expect I will try and snatch another parcel, for long term holding. To those still holding it must give you a warm feeling........ 5%+ annual return hmmmmmmmmmm?????
Yup they do invest mainly overseas but let me ask few things:
- are they australian fund?
- isn't it upto the investor himself to decide benchmarks for his/her portfolio not leave upto anyone else to dictate?
- whatabout for the years to come? how do you compare PTM share's performance in relation to other ASX floated companies you would otherwise consider putting your money in?
That's arguable, does it matter where the fund is INCORPORATED or where it INVESTS? Where you file the papers and have your office located when you invest globally just doesn't matter.
It's like saying a Japanese fund which invests exclusively in the All Ords, but is based in Japan, is doing a good job if it manages to beat the Nikkei (notwithstanding a major underperformance of the All Ords). Come on.
Yes and no. Only certain benchmarks make rational sense - would it make sense to compare PTM's return to the return on government bonds? Would it make sense to compare NAB to the return on a resources portfolio? Comparisons should be on a comparable risk basis.
With respect, you do not seem to know many fundamental concepts of finance. Relevant in this case is that higher risk = higher return, and your expected return on an investment should be as a function of its risk [hence why comparisons should be made on a comparable risk basis].
If the All Ords was made up of companies like that which PTM invests in, and was a long/short index, then it would be appropriate to consider it as a benchmark. But is this the case?
Do you expect funds which invest in Australian Small Ords to compare to the ASX50? Do you expect investments in the Resources sector to compare to the Healthcare sector?
It has to be comparable. Your fixation on physical location does not relate to comparability. I cannot put it any stronger.
In second stage (once I chose the best performing fund) and from the point of an investor I want to compare investing in best fund with opportunities available elsewhere within my investing playground (for me ie. Australia).
Isn't the ultimate goal of investing "to finish with more dough than you had at the start"? So be that fund or stock or whatever ultimately they are all equal and I as an investor compare them based on just that - how much do they potentially bring into my pocket.
Your line of argument does implicitly assume that the Australian market has a higher level of expected return than equity markets globally; very debatable.., but I will proceed with that assumption
1. Well I think that mine same as everyone's decision is fairly simple - Put the money into an investment vehicle, which one believes will guarantees him (based on some analysis) the highest cumulative return on his investment and safety of the invested principle.Not exactly. You're missing a key step:
1. Decide what you want to have exposure to (global equities, ASX, resources, etc.) <-
2. Find the best possible investment that gives exposure to that risk factor.
I must just say that to me investing that way is just somehow upside down process.If you want to invest in the All Ords, and return All Ords index returns, then you wouldn't look at a global equity fund.
The key factor you are missing here is risk. If you follow your line of reasoning, no-one should invest in bonds, no-one should leave their cash in the bank earning interest, as those investment options are expected to leave you with less $ vis-a-vis a equity investment. This is what I mean by the risk-return trade-off..the more risk you are taking, the higher the return. So its apples and oranges to compare PTM [who probably have a pretty well diversified portfolio, although I don't know for sure obviously..] to a commodity heavy index like the All Ords
statement. I dont think I could seriously invest into a company about which I dont have such a basic info.compare PTM [who probably have a pretty well diversified portfolio, although I don't know for sure obviously..]
Re: your example, yes, I would be. Let me rephrase your example with the rism element included that I'm talking about above:
Would you be happy investing in the All Ords index earning expected 16%p.a bearing a 25%p.a. standard deviation (for arguments sake) if over that time Paladin expected 25% but had a 70%p.a. standard deviation?
Isn't it apples and oranges to compare?
Eg. If one reasonably believes that the ASX markets at 6,300 (or thereabouts) can within a year go upto say 6,700 (I am not sayin it is or it is not ) than thats more than 6%ish percent a bank is offering you and you money is best kept in the stock. However if one conludes that such level is unreasonable than put it in the savings account. See? Simple algebra
I measure the risk by the records of past performance, earning, growth, debt levels and the like you probably dont believe in.
My advisor says anything north of $6.50 is over the top. By the way, the painter has finished today an your brickwork now looks lovely.
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