Psychology - Personal Development

[pavilion103]

I am curious to see how many traders in here read a lot of personal development books/attend seminars.

I am new to trading and have probably read about 10 or so trading books. I do feel that I know myself fairly well and have read around 30-40 personal development books. Do people think this is a big help from the psychology point of view? Obviously nothing can prepare someone for the live markets but I'm curious to see who else has read a lot of these types of books and if they believe it has given them a better understanding of themselves and psychology.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

You have/are walking a similar path to me. Have plenty of 'personal growth' books from East and West. Had many moments of enlightenment but found 'knowing' made no difference to the world. Humanity is a complete contradiction of 'life' and human life on this planet is an abomination. What more to do but go through this experience from birth to death, postulating some reason, as millions have done before.

 

[Market Depth]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Good trading decision. Bad trading decision. That's it.

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

You have/are walking a similar path to me. Have plenty of 'personal growth' books from East and West. Had many moments of enlightenment but found 'knowing' made no difference to the world. Humanity is a complete contradiction of 'life' and human life on this planet is an abomination. What more to do but go through this experience from birth to death, postulating some reason, as millions have done before.

It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk.

The one thing I have learnt is to live my passions. I am 25 years old, I enjoy my work, but I cannot stand the thought of a 9-5 job for many more years. It is at the stage where I am willing to do whatever it takes. This is my goal, please tell me if you think it is reasonable.

I have a 3 year plan.
I am currently spending 15 hours a week working on trade (reading, forum, trading live simulators with a few different systems, learning Amibroker etc...)
I am in this for the long run and have set a goal to be able to become a full time trader by New Year 2014.
I have a property under contract which will free up some cash. I haven't started trading yet and will not until I test my systems further.
So, over the next 3 years I intend to spend close to 2,500 hours working on this (15 per week x 52 x 3). Live in the market, testing systems, reading etc...
Then look to leave work and become a full time profitable trader making $100,000+ per year.

 

[Market Depth]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk.

Got Unlimited Power and have walked the glowing coals but not with Robbins. You could build on the seminar experience to really get focused on your goals. Do you have support with your endeavors. What about other activities such as sport/healthy eating, relaxation, social gatherings (minus the saboteurs), a sound appreciation and respect for nature, adequate sleep.
What about work with accessing Alpha state on cue, releasing negative influences (people or environment) from your life and importantly, giving of yourself either monetarily or practically to help the genuine folk.

It doesn't come naturally for most but can be learned and it is a life time of learning.

I find the taking part of trading and buying into companies that strip the environment bare a conscience issue but there aren't many human beings not participating indirectly anyway.

 

[tech/a]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?

I would suggest min $300k and $600K would make it far easier.
Though you could leverage (Sensibly) the $300k.

As for psychology and personal development---35 yrs of self employed---2 near bankruptcies---and now a sizable company to run---all the guidance/education Ill ever need.

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?

Probably a couple of hundred thousand. Although I am leveraging my positions and still leaving my risk size as 1-2% of capital. I'm assuming with leverage I wouldn't need as much of my own money as I did without leverage?

 

[IFocus]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

pavilion103;613061]It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk.

Great thing to do but wont make you a better trader

The one thing I have learnt is to live my passions. I am 25 years old, I enjoy my work, but I cannot stand the thought of a 9-5 job for many more years. It is at the stage where I am willing to do whatever it takes. This is my goal, please tell me if you think it is reasonable.

Great thinking start now

I have a 3 year plan.
I am currently spending 15 hours a week working on trade (reading, forum, trading live simulators with a few different systems, learning Amibroker etc...)
I am in this for the long run and have set a goal to be able to become a full time trader by New Year 2014.
I have a property under contract which will free up some cash. I haven't started trading yet and will not until I test my systems further.
So, over the next 3 years I intend to spend close to 2,500 hours working on this (15 per week x 52 x 3). Live in the market, testing systems, reading etc...
Then look to leave work and become a full time profitable trader making $100,000+ per year.

10,000 hrs is the standard for becoming an expert

My advice is read all the books and some for your own growth as for trading testing is the holy grail pretty much every thing else is total BS. Simple is best.

Through testing you can develop correct behavior / decision making processes. Most miss this very simple thing hence most fail.

After testing comes SIM / paper trade your ideas to death again its about correct behavior / decision making processes.

If you are really lucky at this stage trading starts to become boring.

Then commit money to the market.

BTW like your plan, good luck, it will be the hardest thing you will ever do but the journey will be worth it.

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

It's very exciting to start on this journey. If there is one thing I am not afraid of it's hard work. I struggle to talk to my friends about trading because they keep asking when I am going to start with real money. People in general don't understand that you can't get something for nothing. That is why most people have nothing. I am a very patient person and would rather commit everything I've got for 3-5 years to get the end result then try to get a quick fix solution.

One good piece of advice on here is for me to focus on testing, simulation etc.... I think I can cut back on the reading a bit now and focus on this a lot more. IF I get spare time then I can continue to do more and more reading.

 

[Julia]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

It's very exciting to start on this journey.

One good piece of advice on here is for me to focus on testing, simulation etc.... I think I can cut back on the reading a bit now and focus on this a lot more. IF I get spare time then I can continue to do more and more reading.

When do you plan to put some real money into the real market?

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

When do you plan to put some real money into the real market?

When I am consistently making profits on paper trades/simulator otherwise I am gambling

 

[tech/a]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

When I am consistently making profits on paper trades/simulator otherwise I am gambling

In general terms your best advised to do that.
However if you know WHY your method will be profitable because you know what your EDGE is then you dont need to sim or systems test.

I cant systems test my Discretionary methods.
I know my edge and I know why it will be profitable---so trade them.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Apparently, the World's top traders don't fear loss. That's their defining characteristic. I didn't come up with this idea, but my experience so far seems to validate it.

Fear of loss is a natural function of the ego. So any process that gets me beyond my ego should help me to have less fear. Less fear should then translate to more presence of mind. Having more presence of mind should allow me to see the market as it is, rather than how I want or fear it might be. Seeing the market as it is should translate to a sense of ease in correctly reading the market's moods.

I like to watch poker on TV sometimes. Good clues there I think. The guy that wins always seems to have the greatest presence.

There's quite a glaring paradox in trading, and that is that if you're playing purely to make money, you're less likely to win! If you're playing simply because you enjoy the dynamics of the game (ie. you're not attached to outcome), then you're more likely to win!

edit: Finding useful tidbits in personal development books is like panning for gold. You have to sift through an awful lot of junk to find what you want. And even then it might be fool's gold.

 

[pavilion103]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Apparently, the World's top traders don't fear loss. That's their defining characteristic. I didn't come up with this idea, but my experience so far seems to validate it.

Fear of loss is a natural function of the ego. So any process that gets me beyond my ego should help me to have less fear. Less fear should then translate to more presence of mind. Having more presence of mind should allow me to see the market as it is, rather than how I want or fear it might be. Seeing the market as it is should translate to a sense of ease in correctly reading the market's moods.

I like to watch poker on TV sometimes. Good clues there I think. The guy that wins always seems to have the greatest presence.

There's quite a glaring paradox in trading, and that is that if you're playing purely to make money, you're less likely to win! If you're playing simply because you enjoy the dynamics of the game (ie. you're not attached to outcome), then you're more likely to win!

edit: Finding useful tidbits in personal development books is like panning for gold. You have to sift through an awful lot of junk to find what you want. And even then it might be fool's gold.

Interesting you mention poker. Around 5 or so years ago I got into it and absolutely loved it. I played in cheap online multi tournaments and won 7 or 8 tournaments ranging between 200 and 2,000 entrants. I see many similarities in trading and it is the love of the game that interests me.

 

[professor_frink]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Hi Matt,

whilst there is nothing wrong with personal development, personally I'd be focusing more on learning about trading first, rather than personal development.

First thing I'd do is to set up a journal so that you can record everything you learn as you go. Then testing everything you can think of, I agree with IFocus, it's the closest thing to the holy grail of trading.

In regards to the psychological aspect of trading, go and get Brett Steenbarger's books, and read his blog: http://www.traderfeed.blogspot.com/(it's no longer updated, but is a great resource). If you want information on bettering yourself as a trader, get that information from a psychologist who trades and coaches traders. More useful than a Tony Robbins seminar IMO

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I'm only a new trader, but psychology is my field so one of the few threads i have knowledge to bring to bear on

I disagree with the need for personal development books and tools etc.
The category in itself is ironic.
you go to someone else for your own personal development, that's like the misconception that you go to a psychologist or a life coach to find out how to live your own life. The 'consultant' is ecstatic! it's just like those what is it ... you guys call it a ..."black box" ? or something people? basically those who give out seminars selling their "AWESOME CANNOT LOSE" systems. Few of you here would believe or buy into that stuff and that's something external to your self.
My friend told me to go read some book about cheese? "where's my cheese" or something....cheesey cool like that and i read through and i never realised that people needed to read this drivel.

I've always been quite an introspective person, i think about weird things in a great many perspectives and then i see these 'life consultants' with their bells and whistles.
and i wonder... the human mind is one of the most adaptive and flexible things on the planet. Is there anything that the guy is spouting that you couldn't have come up with yourself?

Imo a large part of 'personal development' is knowing yourself. Not just your roles and what you do and the superficial reason why you do stuff, but i mean REALLY know yourself, be brave enough to dig into those really dark corners of your mind.
Challenge every thought you have, the minute you say "oh it's this, always is" is the minute you close your mind to alternatives and be poorer for it. This especially applies in trading because of emotional control, when you see a stock and get all excited, you should ask.. why you are being excited? it's just a line on a graph no?

i'm going to finish up cos otherwise i'll be writing an essay.

here's a thought i had the other day though.

People change ideas and thoughts everyday, we are shaped by the world as much as we shape it....

so why does religion persist in largely the same form.. and why can't a person believe 2 religions in the same way we have a general belief and have exceptions to this?
Isn't our mind capable of holding more than one belief at a time? Of course it can so why this seeming monogamy with a religion (including atheism)?

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

psychology is my field

Is there anything that the guy is spouting that you couldn't have come up with yourself?

People change ideas and thoughts everyday, we are shaped by the world as much as we shape it....

Isn't our mind capable of holding more than one belief at a time?

Just wondering if you know about ingrained patterns, habits, repetition, strong beliefs, idiosyncrasies and the like.

One could take a psychological sledgehammer to them and never break through. Look around at how many have the basic cigarette smoking pattern. People want to change but they don't know how so seek guidance from others that have walked the path. Louise Hay and Wayne Dyer for example have plenty of ideological gems amongst their literature.

I also agree that the personal development field has shonks exploiting the human frailty when seeking guidance on their personal life journey. Another human trait.

Bang for buck see Anthony Robbins, wholesome reading with practical application see Wayne Dyer.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[ChaoSI]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

Just wondering if you know about ingrained patterns, habits, repetition, strong beliefs, idiosyncrasies and the like.

One could take a psychological sledgehammer to them and never break through. Look around at how many have the basic cigarette smoking pattern. People want to change but they don't know how so seek guidance from others that have walked the path.

Just my opinion of course.

oh i like a good opinion leads to good discussion
okay for the first lot, habits and repetition... though really you could argue the first 3 things are pretty much the same thing..
i'm guessing you're referring to subclinical categories of these things> as opposed to like anxiety driven OCD or addictive behaviours?

habits: basically set patterns of behaviour or thought patterns derived from constant execution they basically end up as scripts for things basically come from repetition (seeing as it can't be a 'habit' if you only do it once)
on the harmless side:
1/ first dinner dates (a/ pick girl up b/ take her to restaurant c/ order food and wine d/ talk etc etc etc / guy pays for dinner after a small to and fro (depending on the girl)
2/ people who always smoke when they drink. --> not so good. (when you wanna quit)
a lot of these habits have a trigger, and this trigger sparks a sequence of thoughts in your head about the actions that you should take. By controlling your environment you can help yourself to break these patterns (known as stimulus control) or you could use the same environment and begin training a new set of behaviours with the aim that the new associations will over-ride the old ones (conditioning. but the old behaviours never go away)

as for the smoking thing: i saw my 92 year old grandmother who had started smoking at 15, who went through at least a carton of Marlborough 20's a week stop.
overnight.... why u say? cos her dentist said that her dentures won't be able to hack the nicotine. So she said "oh... okay i'll stop smoking then"
hahaha so yeah i'm a bit biased there.
However she's exceptional. With addictive behaviours you're talking about a rewiring of the brain in response to the constant intake of a drug basically. However this can also be influenced by the environment if you always smoke at X place and you pass it everyday, every time you do your brain will actually 'prepare' for the drug intake by (can't remember the jargon here) creating compensatory shift in the brain. Which can result in a sudden craving. (argh that's a horrid explanation i know, i can clarify if you want but i'll have to double check my notes to remember how they explained it)

idiosyncracies: i know what this is, but what types of things are you referring to exactly?

strong beliefs: strong beliefs usually come about when we don't challenge the way we think, humans have a 'confirmation bias' as soon as they come up with a theory, and all evidence to the contrary is then dismissed as "the exception" (when in reality it could be the other way around)

a lesson i've learnt recently is to make sure you're seeing what is ACTUALLY there not what you THINK is there. ( i work in welfare so misinterpreting something can mean really bad news and serious consequences for a family)
Just be aware that few people see what is there, only what they THINK is there.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development

I practice a 'cessation' type of meditation (aka, concentration, absorption, samatha). I do it on my own.

I also examine my beliefs are the most core level I'm capable of. This is essential in order to get 'access' levels of concentration for samatha. If there's any guilt or esteem problems (which everyone has to some degree), then that will put a halt to things before you've even started.

I'm not into 'isms' of any sort, so I'm not a buddhist. However if you look into religious practices (as opposed to doctrine, fanfare and hoo-haa), you might see that the core practice common to all is a quietening of the inner dialogue.