Prop trading graduate programs?

[OmegaTrader]

That's a very negative view. Just because you have a Uni degree, it doesn't guarantee you a job or a successful career, you need to work for that.

The University placement arrangements in Australia (and in fact, around the world) have many failures, but don't let that slow you down. You are where you are - you can either let it bog you down (along with 95% of others), or you can find a way to progress from here.

For you to post here and seek advice, you clearly care more than most. Don't let a potentially crappy system get in your way.

Re: Option 3> So to keep it simple for everybody.. Some of us are in the category who can't get in to these Legit and Reputable Firms ( 2 mentioned in Australia) and we are smart enough to learn and pay for a reasonable fee butalso smart enough to smell a snake oil salesperson from miles away selling education or masquerading as prop.. HOW DO WE FIND no BS "Educator"

I can only speak for myself and the educator I went through.

The website address is in my blog post.....

There are two main components of desk fees... one is software license costs which are cost per head (so the shop is not already paying for it). The other is fixed costs like office, IT, compliance, utilities etc. Sure the shop is paying for those whether you are a trainee or not... but using the same argument then no one should pay for these costs. Yet they have to be paid for somehow...



Job is what you apply for. Future is what you make of it.

I once spoke with an aspiring trader... who had a short sting with a Prop shop but didn't make the cut in the end. I told him that, if you want to be a trader badly enough then you will do what it takes for that to happen. It might be stacking shelves at Woolies at night while sleeping on your parents couch for a year... in order to save up enough capital to trade a few contracts. The private trader route is a perfectly legitimate way to make trading a career.

Are there opportunity costs? Of course. But so is everything in life.

Anyway... I don't know your circumstances so take or leave what I say as

I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
(they have it on their front page)

1) It is not a potentially crappy system. It is crap. Clichés do not change reality left for our generation.

We are at 1.5% interest rates and we are considered one of the best countries in the world. We are on adrenaline ... printing the paper money lollies won't work anymore soon.

2) Of course you have to start down the bottom. But if no one gives you a chance....
So why do you go to university then? Almost all young people I know are in this situation.Lucky I didn't study engineering.

3) I AM NEVER PAYING FOR EXPENSIVE EDUCATION/TRAINING. Maybe if it was reasonable even then probably not.

4) In regards to prop fees, $24,000 a year is still BS.
Next time you are in Coles you can pay for the fridges when you grab some milk and the lights in the shopping centre too and tip the checkout chick while you are at it. Sunk costs, fixed costs????



That's it

I go for prop or...



die trying as a retail trader

I still have 40-50 years left to die if all goes well



Cheers

Omega

 

[Klogg]

1) It is not a potentially crappy system. It is crap. Clichés do not change reality left for our generation.

We are at 1.5% interest rates and we are considered one of the best countries in the world. We are on adrenaline ... printing the paper money lollies won't work anymore soon.

Yes, that's the macro view of the world. It doesn't stop you from finding a niche, an inefficiency somewhere that allows you to make good coin.

2) Of course you have to start down the bottom. But if no one gives you a chance....
So why do you go to university then? Almost all young people I know are in this situation.Lucky I didn't study engineering.

I completed a university degree - Bacherlors of Information Technology at Swinburne. The course was offered with a scholarship which virtually paid my fees, so I came out without a HECS debt.
In hindsight, I could have learnt what they taught me much faster on my own, but it gave me a chance at generating an income (initially). My career path has changed massively since.

To answer your question - I attended university for this purpose, for a chance to get a job. Nothing is guaranteed, and studying for a set of assessments and exams won't make it so.

3) I AM NEVER PAYING FOR EXPENSIVE EDUCATION/TRAINING. Maybe if it was reasonable even then probably not.

Depends what you define as reasonable and what the results of that education will be. But fair enough, each to their own.

4) In regards to prop fees, $24,000 a year is still BS.
Next time you are in Coles you can pay for the fridges when you grab some milk and the lights in the shopping centre too and tip the checkout chick while you are at it. Sunk costs, fixed costs????

I do pay for each of those. I buy things from Coles, they use that to pay the rent, fridges, electricity, wages, etc.
Except the tip of course.

I'm not familiar with prop shop fees, so I can't comment here. The structure would clearly favor the prop shop, as they have the advantage when making this deal. But you go in, do the hard yards (even if that means a 2nd job to pay those fees) for a chance to move up in that particular industry.

Not saying it's the best deal, it may be really bad... but it's a matter of weighing it up against the costs of other opportunities.

 

[OmegaTrader]

Yes, that's the macro view of the world. It doesn't stop you from finding a niche, an inefficiency somewhere that allows you to make good coin.



I completed a university degree - Bacherlors of Information Technology at Swinburne. The course was offered with a scholarship which virtually paid my fees, so I came out without a HECS debt.
In hindsight, I could have learnt what they taught me much faster on my own, but it gave me a chance at generating an income (initially). My career path has changed massively since.

To answer your question - I attended university for this purpose, for a chance to get a job. Nothing is guaranteed, and studying for a set of assessments and exams won't make it so.


Depends what you define as reasonable and what the results of that education will be. But fair enough, each to their own.


I do pay for each of those. I buy things from Coles, they use that to pay the rent, fridges, electricity, wages, etc.
Except the tip of course.

I'm not familiar with prop shop fees, so I can't comment here. The structure would clearly favor the prop shop, as they have the advantage when making this deal. But you go in, do the hard yards (even if that means a 2nd job to pay those fees) for a chance to move up in that particular industry.

Not saying it's the best deal, it may be really bad... but it's a matter of weighing it up against the costs of other opportunities.

Time will tell if its worth it or trading works out.


At the prop I give them rebates+ commissions + my time and profits if I'm lucky

They give me training+time and gain the asymmetry of successful candidates.

They don't need a nice tip as well...

If I get into a prop I will gain the education/exposure which is terrific

If the situation is good then I will go 120%


and if the deal/situation is BS

I will metaphorically :axt::horse:c::fu::badsmile::007:

or I could just not make the cut or fail anyway lol


Its not just a macro view, it a view of the generations legacy before me.



thanks

 

[CanOz]

Good luck omega. If you live in Sydney and can get by without a salary for 6 months to a year then a try out at a prop shop is a no-brainer in my view. Always weigh up the risks and go with low risk. Noticed I did not say "no risk".

I might have missed something but have you actually applied at any properties shops yet?

 

[OmegaTrader]

Good luck omega. If you live in Sydney and can get by without a salary for 6 months to a year then a try out at a prop shop is a no-brainer in my view. Always weigh up the risks and go with low risk. Noticed I did not say "no risk".

I might have missed something but have you actually applied at any properties shops yet?

I have to move to Sydney middle/end of next year. ... plenty of savings from living at home there is no issue there.

In the meantime I will do everything I can to get an edge over the rest of the applicants before I apply.

 

[Triathlete]

I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
(they have it on their front page)

Maybe you should open up the whole article and read the part that says " Now to be real, you cannot learn to be a full time trader earning bucket loads of cash in a day. But you can learn enough to get you trading profitably and more importantly, safely from day one.".

I still think for newbies this Mentor Course is a good way to start and to see if trading is for them and if they want to continue into the more advanced courses if they are having success with what is being taught.

This mentor course option was not available when I started so I had to do the main course.

Anyway people can make up their own minds as to what suits them.

Cheers
Triathlete

 

[OmegaTrader]

Maybe you should open up the whole article and read the part that says " Now to be real, you cannot learn to be a full time trader earning bucket loads of cash in a day. But you can learn enough to get you trading profitably and more importantly, safely from day one.".

I still think for newbies this Mentor Course is a good way to start and to see if trading is for them and if they want to continue into the more advanced courses if they are having success with what is being taught.

This mentor course option was not available when I started so I had to do the main course.

Anyway people can make up their own minds as to what suits them.

Cheers
Triathlete

I understand what your saying but I won't do that.


It is $997 ~ $1000 for a course with 10 videos+resources+support.

If the course helps you save time and losses then it is worth it and vice versa of course



I will try to get into prop first.

If that fails then back to square one.

If it worked for then that is really good but that's not my path for now at least

 

[Triathlete]

I understand what your saying but I won't do that.


It is $997 ~ $1000 for a course with 10 videos+resources+support.

If the course helps you save time and losses then it is worth it and vice versa of course



I will try to get into prop first.

If that fails then back to square one.

If it worked for then that is really good but that's not my path for now at least

I hope it works out for you Omegatrader and you get into prop and you learn what you need to and can make the grade, you are young enough....Unfortunately this was not an option for me.

Most people do not like to take this path because the courses are costly so they prefer to try and make it on their own by reading books, and using the internet for information. I have read about people also trading their accounts and blowing up a number of accounts before they make it.

So I just think that rather than blowing up accounts and losing money I rather use it for some education first.

It was a risk for me as well at first because I was not sure whether the courses were of any use, thankfully everything turned out well.

These courses are not as costly as watching your portfolio losing value during events such as the '87 crash or the GFC because you do not have the knowledge of what to do and then having to wait years for them to recover.

This is fine if you have 20-30 years but not if you aim to retire. I knew many people which this happened too after the GFC.

As has been said to me before..... " A fool does in the end what a wise person does at the start."


All the best Omega and keep the forum updated on how you get on with Prop.....

Cheers
Triathlete

 

[CanOz]

If ya Can't get into prop omega trader, give me a shout. I'll at least be able to get you set up on a sim account, give you ideas about context, show you what to look for trading the Dax. The rest is up to you.

 

[cynic]

I'm not sure of the reputation of this particular site, but most places that say "Learn to trade in a day" really do worry me...
(they have it on their front page)

I think the company triathlete is referring to is "Wealth Within" (or closely associated).

If so, it might be worth bearing in mind that they were fined by ASIC for misleading advertising.

 

[Triathlete]

I think the company triathlete is referring to is "Wealth Within" (or closely associated).

If so, it might be worth bearing in mind that they were fined by ASIC for misleading advertising.

That is correct cynic and some of the more experienced members of this forum had brought this to my attention a number of years ago when I also knew nothing about this.

What I found in my investigation was that it had nothing to do with what was being taught but rather about their IMA's (individual managed accounts).

What ASIC found misleading was that they had advertised that their managed accounts were said to be earning say 15% over a set period of time,however this could not be verified as every persons account would be different as they would have different stocks in their individually managed accounts.

So some may have been earning 15% ,some maybe 10% and others maybe 5% and other maybe 20% so this is why they were fined and they no longer advertise this.

Again though everyone should do their due diligence.

Cheers
Triathlete

 

[minwa]

From the news article I read it was also that they advertised their compounded return average over 8 years which is of course higher instead of actual the average individual pa returns for each year.

For a 3 year return of 5%, 10%, 15% should be 10% average return pa but instead they conpounded it first then averaged it to 10.95% pa without stating their calculation i. advertisement. Would be magnified a fair bit over 8 years.

Still, they had a return to show so that's something at least.

 

[OmegaTrader]

I hope it works out for you Omegatrader and you get into prop and you learn what you need to and can make the grade, you are young enough....Unfortunately this was not an option for me.

Most people do not like to take this path because the courses are costly so they prefer to try and make it on their own by reading books, and using the internet for information. I have read about people also trading their accounts and blowing up a number of accounts before they make it.

So I just think that rather than blowing up accounts and losing money I rather use it for some education first.

It was a risk for me as well at first because I was not sure whether the courses were of any use, thankfully everything turned out well.

These courses are not as costly as watching your portfolio losing value during events such as the '87 crash or the GFC because you do not have the knowledge of what to do and then having to wait years for them to recover.

This is fine if you have 20-30 years but not if you aim to retire. I knew many people which this happened too after the GFC.

As has been said to me before..... " A fool does in the end what a wise person does at the start."


All the best Omega and keep the forum updated on how you get on with Prop.....

Cheers
Triathlete

If ya Can't get into prop omega trader, give me a shout. I'll at least be able to get you set up on a sim account, give you ideas about context, show you what to look for trading the Dax. The rest is up to you.

Thanks for your opinion triathlete.
Its good to have another perspective.

And thanks Canoz I still have till the mid/end of next year.
In the meantime practice + the forums are going to get pummelled with interest rate derivative spread trading questions

:rocketwho

lol

 

[TRS_1]

You might not find an answer in Google so I'll try....I reckon they trade spreads because they have an almost riskless edge there. There are so many synthetic instruments that there are almost guaranteed gains available. Legging risk is now being overcome by algoes, so they do still have some event risk, but basically it's statistical arbitrage strategies that are making the big bucks. Many people don't know this, but one of the world's largest bond traders is an Aussie, based in Singapore virtually owning the 2 and 10 year Aussie bonds.

Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit further on this? Who is this trader? Does the trader work for one of the big banks/HFs/prop shops? Might be a bit out dated now though...