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Practicalities involved in running own SMSF

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jorgon

(Jeremy Gordon)
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7 September 2010
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Hi all

I have two questions about how an SMSF might work in practice, but I need to explain first why I am asking the questions.

I'm a Pom lawyer coming to Australia to live and I will need to transfer my pension fund to a SMSF. Being a control freak, I'm just looking at the practicalities of setting up the SMSF myself, registering it as a QROPS (Qualifying Registered Overseas Pension Scheme) to satisfy the UK tax authorities, and also organising the SMSF myself on an annual basis right up to submitting the accounts and proposed tax return to the auditors ready for the submission to the ATO. I am aware from other threads and from my research of the amount of work and the pitfalls involved, and the need for 100% accuracy so there is no need to warn me about that. But I do prefer to blame myself if something inadvertently goes wrong, rather than taking the can for someone else's mistake. And so far I have found (as is often the case) that there is a considerable amount of mystery and vagueness generated by the "experts" when in fact when you go to the core documentation, things can be fairly readily understood. Apart from my two questions, that is!

In the UK half of my pension fund is in a SIPP (Self Invested Pension Fund) which I manage. A SIPP seems very like an SMSF except that in a SIPP the trustees are independent and themselves report to the tax authority. The SIPP member cannot have any input into this. I believe the reporting requirements must be much less onerous than in Australia because SIPP fees in the UK are very low, in fact I know one SIPP provider which does not charge any fees at all - relying only on commission from the linked online brokers!

Where I am having difficulty is in looking ahead to when I have my SMSF organised and funded and the mechanisms involved in using the online brokers.

I've been looking at the online brokers available to Australian residents and as mentioned by forum contributors the fees for international trades seem to be pretty outrageous. So if possible I would wish to set up a dealing account for my SMSF with my existing online broker in the UK. This broker would have a base currency in pounds sterling.

Question 1
So my first question is, does anyone with a SMSF in Australia use:-
(a) an overseas online broker; or
(b) an online broker whose base currency is not Australian dollars; and
(c) if so does this cause any problems for the SMSF?

Question 2
Suppose my SMSF is called "D. Duck Super Fund". Has anyone had any difficulty registering a dealing account with an online broker in such a non-natural name as "D. Duck Super Fund" and has this caused difficulties with providing ID etc? If so it might be better for me to use a corporate trustee when setting up the SMSF.

Judging from the posts on this forum there is probably expertise to answer these questions and if so I would very much appreciate it.
 

G'Day jorgon;

Can't help you authoritatively with Q1, although it is my strong belief that a SF Trust Deed is able to allow investing/trading in Overseas shares. I would recommend you see a professional outfit that helps you set up a Deed. When I did that earlier this year, it set me back about $800 - money well spent.
If you wish, PM me and I'll give you my Consultant's contact details.

"D.Duck Superfund" is hardly am objectionable name. Having "Superfund" as part of the name will help; in the end, it's not the name, but the certification by the relevant Government Department.
One detail might cause you a limited amount of grief: I have noticed on occasion that an electronic Bank Transfer "complained" when I used non-alphanumericals in descriptions, including account name fields. For example, "His & Hers Account" was rejected until I dropped the '&' or replaced it by the word 'and'. But then, the transaction went through even though the account name was no longer a 100% match.
 
I would email your enquiry to a few SMSF specialists in Australia, and see what response you get.

I cant see why you cant do what you stated.

I definitely would get some advice, to ensure ALL requirements were in place, even via APRA or ATO.

(you can seek a "binding ATO ruling" in writing within 28 days), although assuming a non-citizen, that option may not be available to you yet
 
I would recommend you see a professional outfit that helps you set up a Deed. When I did that earlier this year, it set me back about $800 - money well spent. If you wish, PM me and I'll give you my Consultant's contact details.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion pixel, however I am well used to drafting such documents and I have already started it. Also I have read that some such documents are simply copies of others and have therefore missed out some required material, or included unnecessary material, as the law has changed. If I purchased a deed I would have to check it over and compare it with the legislative requirements, so I might as well write my own. Anyway it also needs to comply with UK pension tax law to enable me to transfer my pension fund.

(you can seek a "binding ATO ruling" in writing within 28 days), although assuming a non-citizen, that option may not be available to you yet
Click to expand...
Thanks awg, however it is my understanding that anyone can ask for an ATO Private Ruling - after all, you don't have to be an Australian citizen to be liable to Australian tax.
 

Hi there Jorgon,

Let me try my best to answer your questions:

1. YES, I've prepared accounts for a few funds (SMSFs) with:
1a. US-based online brokerage (trading shares and writing covered-options)
1b. US-based online brokerage with USD base currency, paid (and received) via TT from AUD-based bank account
1c.1. YES, in terms of preparing the accounts, as you would have to translate every purchases and sales of securities, and interests earned (on the broker's cash account) into AUD. (ATO link: http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/34749.htm)
1c.2. YES, in terms of potentially realizing a foreign exchange gains/losses (and paying tax for it) without necessarily making any profit from your trading (ATO Link: http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/41178.htm)
1c.3.As long as you 'use' the trading account in accordance with the 'sole purpose' test (ATO link: http://www.ato.gov.au/superfunds/content.asp?doc=/content/00251857.htm&page=25), then you should be okay.

2a. Quoting pixel: "Having "Superfund" as part of the name will help" <--- I agree!
2b.1. Having a corporate trustee for a super fund WILL help everybody (and I mean everybody!). Google "special purpose company smsf" and you will find some reasons from credible sources.
2b.2. A "special purpose company" will be more suitable as its annual ASIC fees will be lower than that of a 'normal' company (ASIC Link: http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Special+purpose+companies?openDocument).

All the best there, Jorgon!

Disclaimer:
This is not an advice, just a friendly knowledge sharing
 
Hi SuperKeep
Thank you for your really helpful answer - I held off replying until now, so I would have something material to say.

Well, I created all my own documents and successfully set up my SMSF fund. Obtaining QROPS recognition was a doddle.

I decided to try to find an online broker outside Australia which would take my SMSF (which has a corporate trustee). This was quite tricky - I could find only one UK based broker which would take a foreign company. This was NatWest stockbrokers but they have been extremely inefficient in dealing with the application and it is still in the pipeline, so I opened an account with Interactive Brokers for my fund.

There will be several transactions within my fund over the year, mostly in GBP or USD. It would be very tedious to have to convert each one separately into AUD at the exchange rate which applied at the time of the transaction as the "general translation rule" would seem to require (your first helpful ATO link).

So I am hoping that I can do separate accounts for the whole year in the respective currencies, and convert the "opening" and "closing" figures using the "averaging rates" published by the ATO. See http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?doc=/content/57624.htm. However, since you didn't mention this option, am I right to have doubts whether this will be feasible as a matter of accounting?

On the name question, having now filled out all the forms, registered my fund with the ATO, obtained an ABN and TFN and having obtained bank, money exchange and stockbrokers accounts, I do think that it is a good idea to call the corporate trustee something which demonstrates clearly that it is a trustee. For example "The Trustee of D.Duck Super Fund Pty Ltd" or "D.Duck Super Fund Trustee Pty Ltd". This would help to explain the distinction between the fund itself "D.Duck Super Fund" and the corporate trustee.

Best regards ..
 
I have been considering changing the structure of my SMSF from two members/trustees to a corporate trustee.

Before going ahead I've checked with the financial institutions with whom I have accounts, e.g. term deposits/online accounts in case changing the structure (effectively changing the ownership even though the fund name remains the same) to see if this would affect existing investments.

Answer is yes. e.g. term deposits would not only be cancelled but would be subject to penalty.

Obviously I won't be going ahead under this circumstance, i.e. just on the term deposits losing 8% p.a. plus whatever the penalty is, and having to start over at much lower rate.

Thought I'd post it here as something to consider for anyone else thinking about doing anything similar. The same would apparently apply if I just change the second trustee!
 
I am in the middle of this with some clients at work. Not being a financial planner (I'm an SMSF accountant) the amount of paperwork and the exactitude of it to merely change a trustee from individuals to corporate is mind-boggling.

Quite a lengthy process if you do not do it regularly. I would highly recommend using a corporate trustee, though, it is far more flexible in terms of estate (ie. succession of trustees) and in the case that you need to add a member. Certainly give it another go once your term deposits mature, although, at 8% p.a they must be longer than the standard 6-12 month period?
 
Thanks, Ves. Have had three quotes for making the change, ranging from $1100 all up to around $1400.
Would go to the specialist lawyers who did the original Trust Deed as they are doing this all the time, as you point out.
I now wish I'd gone the corporate trustee structure in the first place for the reason you offer. Always better not to have the involvement of any other person and the potential complications should that person drop dead or whatever.

Out of interest, Ves, if a client were consulting you about making this change, would you advise them to check whether their existing investments would be affected?
I'm a bit surprised that neither of the two accountants with whom I've discussed this has even raised it!

Yes, the 8% is for five years.
 
Whilst we cannot give specific investment advice as accountants (without a financial services licence), we can provide facts around what could happen to an investment if this change was made. The problem in practice is that most accountants would have no idea, unless they deal with this on a regular basis. I have, for instance, seen other accountants advise that if you want a company structure you will need to set-up an entirely new fund to be able to change the shares in a Commsec account to reflect the new trustee name! (Not to mention that they were ignorant of the capital gains impact, the implications and documentation required to set-up and roll benefits into a new fund). This could potentially cost the client thousands of dollars (a lot more if they are sitting on massive capital gains). Just be careful who you take advice from, always get a second opinion if unsure.

Sometimes taking the "cheap" advice option costs you more in the long run.
 
Update to my post of yesterday, I decided to check with the local Branch Manager.
She was unsure and has since checked and got back to me with assurance that they would simply register the change on the existing accounts (on sighting certified copy of trustee change) and the accounts would not be at all affected.

To be sure, I've now written an old fashioned letter to SUN legal department asking for this in writing.

Pretty amazing the different advice that the same organisation can hand out.
 
I am setting up a SMSF right now, and this thread has at least caused me to have another look at the trustee issue, so thanks for that.

I had a look at the reasons posted by Julia & vespuria for having a corp trustee. From what I can gather the advantages (over personal trustees) are in the case where;
1. you want to add new members who would have to become trustees which would entail changing the names on all accounts held and even on each individual shareholding?
2. Either myself or the wife dies, which would mean a new trustee would be required, again involving changing names on all accounts
3. We split up and want to divide the super up, as well as changing the trustee and again names on all accounts.
anything else?

On the other side of the ledger we have the costs of maintaining a corporate trustee, which from previous experience is ASIC fee ($212 pa?) + provision of regd office if your accountant does that ($300 pa) + another layer of accounts/returns for your accountant to charge for say $300 conservatively. plus a bit of extra paperwork for you to deal with each year.

say that comes to $800 pa conservatively , plus $1000 set up costs. all of which could otherwise be invested and compounding up at whatever rate of return you achieve in your SMSF.

obviously the likelyhood of any of the events above occuring varies with the individual, but assuming most people arent planning on any of them for a while. lets say that some sort of restructure is required in 10 years. after 10 years your super balance will be some 16k (the above costs compounded at 10%pa) worse off with a corporate trustee v an individual one. So if you stick with individual trustees and you have to do a restructure after 10 years, the extra paperwork and accountants fees involved would have to be worth more than 16k for you to be better off with the corporate trustee? Is that likely?

Since i doubt the hassle of some paperwork and accountants fees can be worth more than say 3 or 4k, the breakeven point is probably as short as 2 or 3 years. I would say the average time before a restucturing event would be longer than this, and for some it may be as long as 30/40 years before it happens


seems to me the choice is between a possible 3k cost + hassle at some point in the future, or a certain cost each year which with opportunity cost is going to add up pretty quickly.

From a strictly financial viewpoint therefore my assessment is that personal trustees beat corporate trustee
 

Shop around, these are the figures I have been quoted by my accountant for two of the items you mention.

Once the company is set up the Annual fees are as follows:
- $41 ASIC Fees
- $198 Accounting Fee
 
Boggo said:
Shop around, these are the figures I have been quoted by my accountant for two of the items you mention.

Once the company is set up the Annual fees are as follows:
- $41 ASIC Fees
- $198 Accounting Fee
Click to expand...

ah yes, have just looked up ASIC and I see it can be a 'special purpose company' trustee for which the fee is currently $42..

thanks
 

I think this advice is pretty much correct since the fund itself isn't changing, the only change is the trustee.

I went through a similar process myself with my own SMSF 2-3 years ago. My fund was initially set up by my accountant about 10 years ago with my retail trading company as the trustee of the SMSF.

Based on a more recent recommendation by my accountant, 2-3 years ago we set up another separate company whose sole purpose was to be the trustee of the SMSF.

In making this change, there were no capital gains/losses implications for the SMSF shareholdings or its term deposits, or other assets held. However, there was quite a bit of work involved on my part to gather all the necessary documents and to have them certified by a JP etc. to achieve this, which I did without any monetary cost, only a cost to me in terms of my own time.

One downside was that I was a bit tardy updating one of the bank accounts. As my accountant is also the licensed SMSF auditor he was duty-bound to report this to the ATO and as a result I received a minor infraction notice from the ATO. However, it was a mere "slap on the wrist" and has since been corrected.

More recently I have become concerned at the federal governments' penchant to discourage savings in super by hitting super members who save more than $500,000 in their fund. Refer to this link. http://www.superguide.com.au/boost-...ntributions-over-50s-concessional-cap-10-q-as

I hope this will never become law, at least not in its currently mooted form.
 
village idiot said:
ah yes, have just looked up ASIC and I see it can be a 'special purpose company' trustee for which the fee is currently $42..

thanks
Click to expand...

That's right and after set-up it should be the only ongoing cost since it does not need to prepare annual accounts (ie. no P&L's or Balance Sheets needed) or to lodge tax returns.
 
All valid reasons. For me it's simply the desire to have no other person involved.


On the other side of the ledger we have the costs of maintaining a corporate trustee, which from previous experience is ASIC fee ($212 pa?)
Click to expand...
Since clarified by others and should probably be $41 if special purpose company.
This is cheaper than the ASIC supervisory levy of I think about $180 (unless one has to pay that as well?)

+ provision of regd office if your accountant does that ($300 pa)
Click to expand...
Why would you need this? I can't see why it can't be run from one's own home as it is now with the two trustees and with no additional cost.

+ another layer of accounts/returns for your accountant to charge for say $300 conservatively.
Click to expand...
There is no extra layer of accounts for the accountant to complete. Nothing will change in terms of the function and operation of the fund or its investments.

plus a bit of extra paperwork for you to deal with each year.
Click to expand...
I can't see where there will be any significant extra paperwork once the change has been made. It's effectively just a change of ownership of the same entity.

say that comes to $800 pa conservatively , plus $1000 set up costs. all of which could otherwise be invested and compounding up at whatever rate of return you achieve in your SMSF.
Click to expand...
As above, I can't see that you have any real basis for assuming the costs you have.
Happy to be corrected if my own assumptions are not right.

Further, any cost for such a change of structure, if one has a decent sized fund, is unimportant if the underlying objective is going to be an improvement.


Thanks for that, Yelnats. It does make sense.

Based on a more recent recommendation by my accountant, 2-3 years ago we set up another separate company whose sole purpose was to be the trustee of the SMSF.
Click to expand...
So this would be the sole purpose company with the attached $41 fee for ASIC?


Sure, and then when the documentation is done it's going to be necessary to send copies with accompanying letters to all financial institutions, share registries etc.
Probably only a few hours' work all up.


Wasn't the main question here why your accountant didn't pick this up when preparing the financial statements?

It may be a bit paranoid of me, but I'm happier with the auditor being completely separate from the accountant.

Is there anyone who has a corporate trustee who could point out any disadvantage not so far considered? awg, if you're around, I think you use a corp. trustee?
 
thanks for your comments everyone.

re the costs; I had a couple of these companies that only acted as trustees for trusts through which I ran a business up till a couple of years ago, and these were the actual costs of running them;
- the ASIC fee $212 was the actual cost at the time, others have since nailed that there is a cheaper version that i wasnt aware of for the current purpose
- i cant remember why the regd office address was the accountants, other than the accountants suggested it and I took their word for it (i was younger then..). The $300 pa was their yearly fee which included sending out the minutes of the agm and , well thats about it
- I checked my old accounts and there were tax returns for the companies, and tax returns dont fill themselves in for free, not by accountants anyway. I dont know exactly what the cost for that was as the bills covered multiple entities, so i just picked an amount equating to about one hour per year of an accountants time, which might be an exageration but not a huge one

However I now know that the asic fee is $42, and there isnt anything else invloved that one couldnt do ones self, so happy to accept that I was wrong about the costs. So I would call that a success
 
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