Poker Machines

[Julia]

I'm sure we'd have a lot more people employed in small business etc via increased consumer spending if not for these monsters. They rip a fortune out of the community and send it partly to government and largely to a few already very wealthy individuals.

I'm not against them totally, but the blatant concentration of machines and marketing in lower socio-economic suburbs is a disgrace.

As a general rule, I'm somewhat against meddling in the affairs of individuals "for their own good". But these poker machines do a LOT of damage to many and there's no reason, other than greed, why we need de facto casinos in every poorer suburb. They could always drive or catch a bus to the casino, but the reality is these machines aren't really that great, people won't go out of their way to use them. Hence they're put right under peoples' noses combined with a marketing blitz to convince the masses that throwing away money is "fun".

Put them in legitimate casinos that's fine. Likewise in non-profit clubs etc. But I'd very gladly see the end of round the clock gaming in working class suburbs. Judgemental may be, but these machines do bring a lot of misery to many.

Just think how much better off we'd all be if the $ millions poured into these machines went instead into local small business, charity or anything of lasting value. So sad to see all those old clunkers in the car park while their owners hand a fortune to someone who could already afford any means of transport they choose.

I refuse to play these machines on principle. Never have and never will unless they're put back where they belong - and that's not under the noses of everyone.

You're right, of course, Smurf. However, if we remove any facet of our social environment that a few people abuse that would be intolerable interference. viz alcohol, cigarettes, motor vehicles.

Yes, there is a carefully placed concentration of these things in the lower socioeconomic areas, but it still comes down to personal choice.
For six months last year I facilitated a group of gambling addicts. They had all been (or still were) alcoholics as well. I'd naively thought these people were going to actually be motivated to reduce or eliminate their gambling which had reduced them to renters after being home owners in most cases.

One couple who still were in their own home which had previously been freehold, had gone to having only a 10% stake in it, and they owed three years in rates arrears for which they were paying 18% interest.
Didn't stop them as soon as the disability pension came in from setting aside their first priority, i.e. $100 "allowance" for the pokies.
No amount of suggestion re options for entertainment, other constructive activities etc, was acceptable.

In the end I walked away. Wasted enough time and energy.

 

[basilio]

Good topic to discuss. There are a number of angles to the whole picture.
My mum plays the pokies with about 5$ on the 2 c machines. Lucky duck usually manages to come out ahead!! Good on her.

But she also observes that far too many of her older friends are pouring hundreds of dollars through the machine that they can ill afford.

And that is the crux of the issue. If Pokies were a "bit of fun" where people played and lost $10, $20 $50 it could be seen as a social night out on par with some other cultural activity (footy, opera. whatever. )

But if the punters only lost a small amount the whole industry would collapse. The pokies are predicated on creating and nurturing a continuous core of addicted people who spend everything they have and then their families and businesses assets on the machines. This is what keeps the industry going - not the social flutters of my Mum and other $10 punters.

So the industry is about creating a whole new addictive world. One where there is no time, no daylight, easily available cash from ATMs ; machines with lots of nice special smells that also suck in people. It's the development of machines with rings, noises and pictures that gaming psychologists have carefully developed to seduce the unwary.

This is not hyperbole just the facts.

The theory of pokies that is sold to governments is that it is an adult game or pastime and that the taxes derived (the governments cut) can be used for socially useful things (hospitals always come to mind). The reality is that they are specifically designed to create an ongoing group of addicted people and the inevitable fallout of family break ups, suicide, business bankruptcy and personal bankruptcy costs the State far more than any revenue. And of course other businesses suffer from the diversion of peoples wages into these little earners.

So that's my soap box story for tonight. I think there is a place for our society not to allow amoral practices specifically designed to addict people. If you want to examine one of the earlier examples of such a policy have a look at the laws passed in early 18th century England to stop the production of cheap gin. The early gin houses just destroyed thousands of lives with super cheap, high alcohol spirits..

 

[marklar]

no problem - you have your version of events, and i have mine.

My dad spent 20 years selling and servicing them, I spent my summer holidays learning how they work, how to fix them & how people cheat them.

I'm not going to diss the industry, it kept a roof over our heads, put food on the table and allowed me to go to university.

m.

 

[AngusSmart]

i'm going to have to agree with you i been in the industry for 8 years, what the previous guy described was more along the lines of link systems.

i stopped playing them like i used to when i started working with them.

Each machine is set on its own percentage about 87-98% in Nsw, tho with how the government is screwing down venues and taxes i would never expect to see a machine over 92%


Right now in Nsw, the machines offering the highest percentages are the players choice with multi denomination 50c and $1 i think they have to set lowest @ 92% i think they have a few out there in the veridian cabinet (aristocrat)

dont go out and blow your money on them however because the house is the only winner here.

 

[derty]

Pokies, they're crap. On so many levels.

I've got mates that have ended up wasting most of their money on these things, hock their gear, lie to their partners about hocking the gear and losing wallets, lost their partners and live in a state of remorse, depression and self loathing. I know it is ultimately their choice, though some people are wired to be vulnerable to these things.

I've heard stories of recent retiree's where one of them manages to put their entire life savings thought the pokies before it's found out they have a problem. I'm sure you have all heard similar stories.

As for the 87-98% return that's only if you pocket every winning the machine returns isn't it? As you know most people will 're-invest' these winnings back into the machine waiting for the big one and almost always walk away with a 0% return. Do any of you know what the actual return is as a %?

They are also crap for communities. They funnel most of the town's entertainment dollars into one or two venues. These venues can then subsidise drinks and meals and it eventually forces out the pubs and restaurants. Mt Isa vs Kalgoorlie is a good example. Kalgoorlie has a thriving pub restaurant and cafe culture - lots of diversity. The Isa has the Irish Club and, to a lesser degree, the Buffalo Club and a few hotels/taverns and restaurants remain. It's grey and dull.

 

[Mofra]

Some intersting analyis/opinion pieces put pokies as one of the major contributing factors to cbd violence in major cities. Young people by and large can't stand pokies, and as suburban venues switch over to pokie barns, this pushes more and more people into the CBD at late times as there is little local entartainment left in many suburbs.

In essence, you now have group of younger people drinking in close proximity, from varying levels of socio-economic backgrounds, with different expectations of acceptable behavior - and it is inevitable that some of these group clash.

As a live music fan, I see pokies as the work of the devil - thank god Melbourne hasn't suffered the same fate as Syndey in terms of live music venue closures. Yet.

 

[gordon2007]

I've got mates that have ended up wasting most of their money on these things, hock their gear, lie to their partners about hocking the gear and losing wallets, lost their partners and live in a state of remorse, depression and self loathing. I know it is ultimately their choice, though some people are wired to be vulnerable to these things.

I can sympathise with this reasoning. However, it still doesn't answer a big question.

At what point do we as a society say enough is enough and we need to stop playing the blame game. Sooner or later one does have to take responsibility for their own actions.

There is alcohol, drugs, sex\prostitusion, cigarettes and many other things that all have the same effect on the people they love.

This problem with the pokies, is it really that much more different then when you go to the news agency to buy a lottery ticket and see others there playing $100's? Yet we hardly ever hear about these people. Hardly ever hear about the people who spend their life savings on the horses. These things do happen, yet there is no nation wide whinge to say these thing are evil and crap.

 

[AngusSmart]

Some intersting analyis/opinion pieces put pokies as one of the major contributing factors to cbd violence in major cities. Young people by and large can't stand pokies, and as suburban venues switch over to pokie barns, this pushes more and more people into the CBD at late times as there is little local entartainment left in many suburbs.

In essence, you now have group of younger people drinking in close proximity, from varying levels of socio-economic backgrounds, with different expectations of acceptable behavior - and it is inevitable that some of these group clash.

As a live music fan, I see pokies as the work of the devil - thank god Melbourne hasn't suffered the same fate as Syndey in terms of live music venue closures. Yet.

Alcohol 100% is the problem for violence

As for the 87-98% return that's only if you pocket every winning the machine returns isn't it? As you know most people will 're-invest' these winnings back into the machine waiting for the big one and almost always walk away with a 0% return. Do any of you know what the actual return is as a %?

the return to player (RTP%) is what the machine is set on for its lifespan. the ARTP rolls up and down i have seen some on 300% and the same machine on 8% minutes later

 

[Smurf1976]

Alcohol 100% is the problem for violence

And yet we had alcohol and late night venues for years before violence on city streets became a problem...

 

[Sean K]

Alcohol 100% is the problem for violence

And yet we had alcohol and late night venues for years before violence on city streets became a problem...

Or, is there just more people to commit the violence and the media have a new hot topic?

Alcohol the cause I think, along with gang behaviour.

 

[basilio]

There is alcohol, drugs, sex\prostitusion, cigarettes and many other things that all have the same effect on the people they love.

This problem with the pokies, is it really that much more different then when you go to the news agency to buy a lottery ticket and see others there playing $100's? Yet we hardly ever hear about these people. Hardly ever hear about the people who spend their life savings on the horses. These things do happen, yet there is no nation wide whinge to say these thing are evil and crap.

Well there are big differences between a lottery ticket and the pokies. A lottery ticket is a "chance to dream" . You buy one now and a few days or a week later you have generally lost your dream or perhaps been really tinny. It's controlled gambling in the sense that the time between buying a ticket and having a result is a natural brake on the tendency to want to keep gambling.

So of course this "natural brake" was inhibiting the profit potential of the system so we had Keno continually playing in clubs, scratchies where you can get an instant result - and then try again. And pokies.

Pokies are the crack cocaine of gambling because the combine so many visual, aural and tactile sensations into a powerful addictive formula. The whole business is orientated to creating and nurturing the inner addict (do you like that line ?) and shaking them down of every penny the own or can borrow, beg or steal.

This is the pokie business in a nutshell.

Cigarettes are another calculated addiction which of course also kills it's customers. Of course the industry has made a virtue of this fact by pointing out to governments that the early death of cigarette smokers from cancer ect results in pension savings and longer term health care, employs people , pays taxes and offer excellent contributions to much needed party funds

I believe there is a place in our society to stop the small percentage of sociopaths who will make, sell and lie about anything to make as much money as they can - particularly in these cases when their products are destructive. Our "freedom" to do anything should stop when it impacts on others.

Off the soap box..!!

Cheers

 

[Wysiwyg]

Off the soap box..!!

Just to add that trading currency pairs can be addictive. Take a win and want to win more. Take a loss and want to win it back again. 24 hours/day 5 days/week. At least with stocks they are on a "natural brake" as you typed. The daily 6 hour session.

 

[noirua]

Ban all poker machines etc in Australia but allow some Indigenous People to have casinos on certain lands they own. They allow it in parts of America and seems to work, to some extent, and gives them certain 'first people' rights over those following on into Australia.

 

[derty]

the return to player (RTP%) is what the machine is set on for its lifespan. the ARTP rolls up and down i have seen some on 300% and the same machine on 8% minutes later

Yes that all makes sense. Though, what I was curious to know was how much people actually removed from the machines (i.e. physical cash) as a percentage of what was put in? I imagine most of the few big prizes get pocketed and the multitude of smaller ones just get played and lost. The figure must be low 5-10% maybe?

 

[Tink]

We have all heard of people that have won and lost on these machines. I think they are a destruction to families that dont know when to stop.

I couldnt think of anything more boring, sitting infront of a machine watching spinning wheels, but each to their own.

 

[Sean K]

I think they are a destruction to families that dont know when to stop.

Yes, lots of anecdotal evidence from people regarding this. I haven't seen or experienced it myself, but you hear the stories. Any studies done on this? Surely.

I couldnt think of anything more boring, sitting infront of a machine watching spinning wheels, but each to their own.

Boring for some, highly addictive for others. Its the anticipation of a big win (or any win) that keeps people sitting there for hours feeding the beasts.


I am struggling with the comparisons to the use of alcohol and cigarettes. Is it really the same thing? They seem much more costly to society to me.

 

[Tink]

Boring for some, highly addictive for others. Its the anticipation of a big win (or any win) that keeps people sitting there for hours feeding the beasts.

Yep, I used to work with a lady whose husband had to open an account for her just to do with the pokies. What she won she would put back in, if she ever put any in, as she would just keep spending.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Once I went down to moorebank sporties with 2 x $20 notes in my pocket, to have dinner and a couple of beers with mates.

6 Hours later I wind up at home rotten drunk and still with $46 of $1 coins in my pocket all thanks to the cleopatra machine. Every time my money got low I went and put $10 bucks in cleopatra and pulled out $15 or $20 bucks.

I tried it again the next week end, But ended up going home with empty pockets and only slightly tipsy